Page # in margins. Is it possible? - Page 2

JSWolf · 12-07-2014, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounce

It's arbitrary for some people, but how about when you're reading a book academically and need to cite the page number?

Right now I'm trying to figure out the page number and it's a mess.

If you need page numbers, then Marvin is not for you. There are no page numbers that you can use to reference.

Valkrider · 12-08-2014, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounce

It's arbitrary for some people, but how about when you're reading a book academically and need to cite the page number?

Right now I'm trying to figure out the page number and it's a mess.

If you adjust the font size then the page number will change, if you ajust margins, line spacing, paragraph spacing etc then the number of pages will change.

Page numbers in any ePub / Mobi reflowable text book will vary on the the items above as well as the screen size so page 100 for me maybe page 98 or 105 for you for example.

The only way page number will be the same for everyone is with a document that you cannot adjust the display like a pdf. Marvin doesn't do pdf's.

So using the example you quote is just not feasible in any ereader using an ePub book.

DaleDe · 12-08-2014, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkrider

If you adjust the font size then the page number will change, if you ajust margins, line spacing, paragraph spacing etc then the number of pages will change.

Page numbers in any ePub / Mobi reflowable text book will vary on the the items above as well as the screen size so page 100 for me maybe page 98 or 105 for you for example.

The only way page number will be the same for everyone is with a document that you cannot adjust the display like a pdf. Marvin doesn't do pdf's.

So using the example you quote is just not feasible in any ereader using an ePub book.

Actually that is not true for the ADE method which counts text instead of display size. The ADE method stays the same number although the position on the page will vary which is why it is on the side margin instead of the bottom.

Dale

eschwartz · 12-08-2014, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounce

It's arbitrary for some people, but how about when you're reading a book academically and need to cite the page number?

Right now I'm trying to figure out the page number and it's a mess.

There are accepted protocols in academia for quoting ebooks.

http://www.mla.org/style/handbook_faq/cite_an_ebook
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/717/05/
http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/20...an-e-book.html

The general rule of thumb is, you treat it as a web resource which doesn't have page numbers. Chapter # is an acceptable alternative.

eschwartz · 12-08-2014, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Actually that is not true for the ADE method which counts text instead of display size. The ADE method stays the same number although the position on the page will vary which is why it is on the side margin instead of the bottom.

Dale

It is nearly as bad with ereaders that do provide location data, e.g. ADE page numbers and Kindle location numbers.

In that case, it is dependent on formatting quirks, and converting the book can result in wildly varying page numbers. I am not sure how ADE calculates the page numbers (they use "1024 unicode characters", but does html formatting count?) but Kindle location numbers use file offsets that include the formatting.

Since real page numbers depend on where you got the original ebook, and the reader, and whether conversions have been done, and other bugbears, the academic world has decided to forgo them entirely (for ebooks) in exchange for more easily trackable methods.

The exception is for Kindles, which unlike ADE do not lie and tell you false page numbers, but if an APNX exists it will contain page numbers derived for that particular .mobi/.azw3 from a specified print edition, and can thus be quoted (as the various citation guides suggest).

(Yes, I know EPUBs can have page-maps -- but I've never seen one, and how do you tell which page numbers are lies and which ones are base off of page-map?)

JSWolf · 12-08-2014, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Actually that is not true for the ADE method which counts text instead of display size. The ADE method stays the same number although the position on the page will vary which is why it is on the side margin instead of the bottom.

Dale

Some versions of ADE have an option to turn on/off the right margin page number. But it's still on the bottom as a footer regardless.

JSWolf · 12-08-2014, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

It is nearly as bad with ereaders that do provide location data, e.g. ADE page numbers and Kindle location numbers.

In that case, it is dependent on formatting quirks, and converting the book can result in wildly varying page numbers. I am not sure how ADE calculates the page numbers (they use "1024 unicode characters", but does html formatting count?) but Kindle location numbers use file offsets that include the formatting.

Since real page numbers depend on where you got the original ebook, and the reader, and whether conversions have been done, and other bugbears, the academic world has decided to forgo them entirely (for ebooks) in exchange for more easily trackable methods.

The exception is for Kindles, which unlike ADE do not lie and tell you false page numbers, but if an APNX exists it will contain page numbers derived for that particular .mobi/.azw3 from a specified print edition, and can thus be quoted (as the various citation guides suggest).

(Yes, I know EPUBs can have page-maps -- but I've never seen one, and how do you tell which page numbers are lies and which ones are base off of page-map?)

ADE's page numbers are as reliable as anything out there for eBooks. True you can get the page numbers to change my modifying the ePub. But if it's the ePub as it came straight from the publishers, then the page numbers are good enough to use to quote from.

Generally a page-map is made from some print version of the book.

eschwartz · 12-08-2014, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ADE's page numbers are as reliable as anything out there for eBooks. True you can get the page numbers to change my modifying the ePub. But if it's the ePub as it came straight from the publishers, then the page numbers are good enough to use to quote from.

Generally a page-map is made from some print version of the book.

And the entire point of my little speech is that page numbers out there for books are not reliable, therefore the "fact" that ADE's are as reliable as anyone else's merely means that they are as UNRELIABLE as anyone else's.

And besides, that isn't true. Amazon Real Page Numbers are reliable, ADE calculated page numbers are not. ADE page-map numbers are reliable, just as much as an APNX I am sure -- but how do you know which one you have, without breaking open the EPUB?

No, I am not worried about malicious editing of the page-map. I am worried it simply won't exist.

Thus -- avoid page numbers in ebooks.

DaleDe · 12-09-2014, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And the entire point of my little speech is that page numbers out there for books are not reliable, therefore the "fact" that ADE's are as reliable as anyone else's merely means that they are as UNRELIABLE as anyone else's.

And besides, that isn't true. Amazon Real Page Numbers are reliable, ADE calculated page numbers are not. ADE page-map numbers are reliable, just as much as an APNX I am sure -- but how do you know which one you have, without breaking open the EPUB?

No, I am not worried about malicious editing of the page-map. I am worried it simply won't exist.

Thus -- avoid page numbers in ebooks.

Well you also need to ignore page numbers in books unless you can guarantee that you have the same edition. Similarly for ADE. And page maps do work. And unicode characters are still characters.

Dale

eschwartz · 12-09-2014, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Well you also need to ignore page numbers in books unless you can guarantee that you have the same edition.

Academia has been doing this for a very long time, with the result of NOT ignoring them...

Quote:

Similarly for ADE. And page maps do work.

I challenge you to demonstrate that I have not already said precisely that... in the very post you quoted!

Quote:

And unicode characters are still characters.

Dale

I am sorry, did I accidentally imply that I have any sort of doubt as to the provenance of unicode characters in an EPUB? The only thing I meant to say was that I am unsure whether ADE counts formatting quirks when calculating pseudorandom page numbers.

P.Zuagreisda · 03-14-2015, 06:02 AM

Hello together,
I have followed this thread quite a while and learned a lot about page numbers in E-Books and their reliability. thanks for all the explanations.

But there is still one issue that i can not really follow:

I learned that ADE page numbering is not reliably in all Reader exactly the same and not useful for quoting. But what if the user does not use it for quoting but for simply switching easily from one Reader to the other. When having calm time to read i use the sony because ist much more convenient that a smart phone.

But to get over waiting time (eg on Airports etc) i use Marvin on my iphone. On my old phone both had ADE pages and so it was easy to find the spot you stopped reading before. With Marvin it's a bit more complicated.

As much as i do understand the limitations of reliability of ADE page numbering, why is it so difficult to let each user decide for himself what he likes to use it for.
An Option for ADE page numbering with Information about the limitations would be ok.
At the moment Marvin is doing my decisions by simply not supporting the Feature.

I would highly appreciate to have the Option because the limitations do not touch my usage. And i think there are a lot of users who feel the same.

Best regards
Peter

P.S.: It is not at all my Intention to be rude, so if my limited english skills led to rude statements, i apologise for it.

eschwartz · 03-15-2015, 12:18 AM

I am inclined to think if it was god enough for switching back and forth between apps and devices, it would be good enough for the academics to do so as well.

What you seem to be asking for is that every device and app out there should start making use of Adobe's counting system. That would be one solution, but I don't think it is realistically going to happen -- it is up to the whims of device/app makers, most of whom don't care.

It would also only work for your personal copy of the book --no guarantees anyone else's book looks the same inside. Granted, that doesn't concern you -- but it does lessen the general desirability of such a feature.

It is on the feature requests list, so it may happen one day. Admittedly, kguil appears to have lost interest in active Marvin development, so who knows when that may be...

P.S. Your English communicates just fine, and is quite polite.

-- Maybe minor grammatical clumsiness, but that is acceptable in a non-native speaker.

You can set your location HERE -- if people see where you live, you don't have to append every post with that disclaimer. And we are very accepting here -- it is one of the nice things about this forum.

Turtle91 · 03-20-2015, 10:30 PM

Hello,
I just wanted all y'all to know that Marvin does have a page number option. Granted, it is NOT a page number based on the whole book, and it is NOT a static page number. It does tell you page numbers in the chapter based on settings you choose:

1) Pages Left in the chapter and the chapter name (e.g. "12 Chapter 4" meaning 12 pages left to go in "Chapter 4")
2) Pages read / and total pages in the chapter (e.g. "4/30" meaning you are on the 4th page out of 30 pages in the chapter you are reading)
3) Pages Left in the chapter - and total pages in the chapter (e.g. "12-30" meaning there are 12 pages left out of 30 pages in the chapter you are reading)

The number of pages is determined dynamically based on your current reading device and how many pages (ie screens) it would take to display the current chapter with the current orientation, font type and size, margin size, etc..

There are a couple steps to select HOW you want Marvin to display this information, which I've taken screenshots and attached.

1) You need to go to the iThing's settings page (not within Marvin) and scroll down until you see Marvin. Tap on that and you will see the page as shown under #1

2) Tap on "Page numbering" and that will bring you to image #2. Select the way you want page numbers to be displayed - as described above.

3) Now open Marvin and select the settings icon from the top left of the Home page (the gear icon). You will get to the "General" page as seen in image #3. You need to make sure there is room to display the page number by selecting "Normal" or "Large" under "vertical margin size", and "Dim" or Bright" under "Page titles and footers"

4) This displays your page numbers at the bottom of the screen as seen in image #4. There is also a progress bar...a very thin (single pixel? look where the arrow is pointing) line at the very bottom of the screen that shows how far you are along in the ENTIRE book. (page 5 out of 26 pages in the 1st chapter of the book)

This doesn't fulfill the reference-quoting (non)requirement of the academic, neither does it fulfill the "must have a page number of the whole book" (ie stuck in a pbook mindset

) crowd. But it DOES fulfill the need to know how many screens (which is really all most of us care about anyway) we've read from the beginning of the chapter - or how many screens to go to the end - and it gives us a sense of how far along we are in the book...

I hope that helps!

Cheers,

harriska2 · 03-27-2015, 12:53 AM

This does not help me determine if this a short book or long book in relation to other books read using the same font, size, etc on marvin.

incumbent · 03-27-2015, 01:14 PM

Word Count would.

03-14-2015, 06:02 AM	#26
P.Zuagreisda Junior Member Posts: 1 Karma: 10 Join Date: Mar 2015 Device: Sony PRS-T1 / Marvin on iphone	further useful features of page# besides of quoting and counting Hello together, I have followed this thread quite a while and learned a lot about page numbers in E-Books and their reliability. thanks for all the explanations. But there is still one issue that i can not really follow: I learned that ADE page numbering is not reliably in all Reader exactly the same and not useful for quoting. But what if the user does not use it for quoting but for simply switching easily from one Reader to the other. When having calm time to read i use the sony because ist much more convenient that a smart phone. But to get over waiting time (eg on Airports etc) i use Marvin on my iphone. On my old phone both had ADE pages and so it was easy to find the spot you stopped reading before. With Marvin it's a bit more complicated. As much as i do understand the limitations of reliability of ADE page numbering, why is it so difficult to let each user decide for himself what he likes to use it for. An Option for ADE page numbering with Information about the limitations would be ok. At the moment Marvin is doing my decisions by simply not supporting the Feature. I would highly appreciate to have the Option because the limitations do not touch my usage. And i think there are a lot of users who feel the same. Best regards Peter P.S.: It is not at all my Intention to be rude, so if my limited english skills led to rude statements, i apologise for it.

03-15-2015, 12:18 AM	#27
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,422 Karma: 85397180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	I am inclined to think if it was god enough for switching back and forth between apps and devices, it would be good enough for the academics to do so as well. What you seem to be asking for is that every device and app out there should start making use of Adobe's counting system. That would be one solution, but I don't think it is realistically going to happen -- it is up to the whims of device/app makers, most of whom don't care. It would also only work for your personal copy of the book --no guarantees anyone else's book looks the same inside. Granted, that doesn't concern you -- but it does lessen the general desirability of such a feature. It is on the feature requests list, so it may happen one day. Admittedly, kguil appears to have lost interest in active Marvin development, so who knows when that may be... P.S. Your English communicates just fine, and is quite polite. -- Maybe minor grammatical clumsiness, but that is acceptable in a non-native speaker. You can set your location HERE -- if people see where you live, you don't have to append every post with that disclaimer. And we are very accepting here -- it is one of the nice things about this forum. Last edited by eschwartz; 03-15-2015 at 12:25 AM.

03-20-2015, 10:30 PM	#28
Turtle91 A Hairy Wizard Posts: 3,094 Karma: 18727053 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Charleston, SC today Device: iPhone 11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire	Marvin has page numbers Hello, I just wanted all y'all to know that Marvin does have a page number option. Granted, it is NOT a page number based on the whole book, and it is NOT a static page number. It does tell you page numbers in the chapter based on settings you choose: 1) Pages Left in the chapter and the chapter name (e.g. "12 Chapter 4" meaning 12 pages left to go in "Chapter 4") 2) Pages read / and total pages in the chapter (e.g. "4/30" meaning you are on the 4th page out of 30 pages in the chapter you are reading) 3) Pages Left in the chapter - and total pages in the chapter (e.g. "12-30" meaning there are 12 pages left out of 30 pages in the chapter you are reading) The number of pages is determined dynamically based on your current reading device and how many pages (ie screens) it would take to display the current chapter with the current orientation, font type and size, margin size, etc.. There are a couple steps to select HOW you want Marvin to display this information, which I've taken screenshots and attached. 1) You need to go to the iThing's settings page (not within Marvin) and scroll down until you see Marvin. Tap on that and you will see the page as shown under #1 2) Tap on "Page numbering" and that will bring you to image #2. Select the way you want page numbers to be displayed - as described above. 3) Now open Marvin and select the settings icon from the top left of the Home page (the gear icon). You will get to the "General" page as seen in image #3. You need to make sure there is room to display the page number by selecting "Normal" or "Large" under "vertical margin size", and "Dim" or Bright" under "Page titles and footers" 4) This displays your page numbers at the bottom of the screen as seen in image #4. There is also a progress bar...a very thin (single pixel? look where the arrow is pointing) line at the very bottom of the screen that shows how far you are along in the ENTIRE book. (page 5 out of 26 pages in the 1st chapter of the book) This doesn't fulfill the reference-quoting (non)requirement of the academic, neither does it fulfill the "must have a page number of the whole book" (ie stuck in a pbook mindset ) crowd. But it DOES fulfill the need to know how many screens (which is really all most of us care about anyway) we've read from the beginning of the chapter - or how many screens to go to the end - and it gives us a sense of how far along we are in the book... I hope that helps! Cheers, Last edited by Turtle91; 03-20-2015 at 11:57 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Hacks change page turn margins	pinn	Amazon Kindle	1	12-29-2012 12:43 PM
PRS-T1 PRS-T1 - Changing page margins prevents 'touch' page turning	Berzelius	Sony Reader	2	08-24-2012 04:02 AM
Stop Calibre from adding page margins?	Jane12	Conversion	10	05-18-2012 01:45 PM
ePub page number and margins	Julien Pham	ePub	23	12-26-2011 10:13 PM

03-27-2015, 12:53 AM	#29
harriska2 Addict Posts: 272 Karma: 8000000 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Corvallis, OR Device: Kindle PW2, iPad Pro	This does not help me determine if this a short book or long book in relation to other books read using the same font, size, etc on marvin.

03-27-2015, 01:14 PM	#30
incumbent Opinionator Posts: 50 Karma: 395950 Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: United States Device: Kobo Aura HD / iPad Mini Retina • iBooks (macOS, iOS) & Marvin	Word Count would.

Advert

Advert