20BooksTo50K. What is it?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

But that article makes them look really bad. It's full of leaps in logic and opinion that the author doesn't bother to back up with examples.

Agreed. It began with the uncorroborated premise that an extremely--shall we say non-centrist--political entity was aggressively targeting a fluffy, and utterly apolitical, bunny. My opinion is that both groups he talked about (one by name, the other by the broadest politically-loaded terminology he could muster) have members who are motivated by a myriad of things. Some good, some bad, some meh.

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I also don't think that a conflict between indie authors and big publishers must necessarily be due to political differences.

I would say that quite a large chunk of that conflict--perhaps even a majority--isn't due to political differences.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

One of the extremely profitable business models in the indie movement is to act like some of the old pulp fiction writers did - i.e. identify a target audience and write a whole lot of inexpensive stories that appeals to that audience... Those target audience can be the psuedo romance urban paranormal crowd or the gun happy zombie apocolypse crowd or anything in between.

And there's nothing wrong with that as a business model. But then it also does help to explain why those authors aren't winning awards for their writing. (Cashing in on a genre with quickly churned out formulaic stories rather than doing anything to advance that genre.)

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

And there's nothing wrong with that as a business model. But then it also does help to explain why those authors aren't winning awards for their writing. (Cashing in on a genre with quickly churned out formulaic stories rather than doing anything to advance that genre.)

Kind of depends if you think that awards should go to stories that readers like, or stories that critics like. One sees the same dynamic is a lot of areas of entertainment. Heinlien famously said that he competed for his readers' beer money. A lot of very famous authors valued popularity over appealing to critics.

[HarryT]

Absolutely nothing wrong with churning out potboilers; it's called "making a living" and some people seem to forget that if you're a professional writer, then that exactly what you need to do!

[DiapDealer]

i would say that popularity is its own reward. Nothing wrong with literary awards seeking to reward other achievements. I read and love tons of stuff I would never consider award-worthy. *shrug*

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Kind of depends if you think that awards should go to stories that readers like, or stories that critics like...

I wrote a post about that already. #4

A lot of very famous authors valued popularity over appealing to critics.

Which is totally valid. But then why try to rig the awards?

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

i would say that popularity is its own reward. Nothing wrong with literary awards seeking to reward other achievements. I read and love tons of stuff I would never consider award-worthy. *shrug*

Yes, exactly. I'm reading a Dungeons and Dragons novel (Darkwalker on Moonshae) and it's entertaining enough. But I wouldn't want to see it nominated for any major awards.

[bgalbrecht]

I didn't read the article linked by ZodWallop, but I can give you some background about the author. Among other things, he claims to be the leading hispanic author in science fiction, or something like it. He's politically conservative, and claims to be discriminated against because of it. He's been known to feud with other people in SF fandom, engaging in cyberstalking, twitter fights and other harrassment. Last year, he went ballistic against a sf convention because they didn't offer him participation in some panels (he had been on panels at the con in at least one previous year). A month or two later, he threatened to go to Worldcon wearing a bodycam and show up in places where he was not welcome, and the Worldcon committee refunded his membership and told him he was not allowed to attend, and he's currently suing Worldcon.

He's written at least one novel, which I've never read, so I won't comment on the quality of his writing.

I know that he was urging people to vote for his friend's books, despite admitting having not read them, for either the first or second Dragon Con awards. I don't think he was directly involved in organizing any sad/rabid puppy slating for the Hugo awards, but he's certainly a sympathizer to their cause and their methods. To a certain extent, I suspect that many of the people involved in these award slates don't even care if they win, they're just looking to be able to use "XXX Award Finalist" as an advertising gimmick, and that's why the Worldcon members changed the rules to make it harder to slate the nominees for the Hugo award. and why many SFWA members are upset now.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I wrote a post about that already. #4



Which is totally valid. But then why try to rig the awards?



Yes, exactly. I'm reading a Dungeons and Dragons novel (Darkwalker on Moonshae) and it's entertaining enough. But I wouldn't want to see it nominated for any major awards.

Why rig the awards? The whole point of most of these movements is that the awards are already rigged in favor of certain writers and their cliques and they are just fighting fire with fire.

While some latched on the liberal verses conservative, I always viewed the sad puppies as closer to Baen authors verses Tor authors since several of the authors in the sad puppies movement were not really conservative but many have ties to Baen Books and the most the venom against them seems to have come from people associated with Tor. Some like to mix in the rabid puppy types, but I always considered that a smoke screen.

As far as why bother, well, one might as well wonder why the cliques took over the Hugo awards in the first place. People are funny creatures.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I don't know a whole lot about it, but it seems there has been some trouble with slate-voting in the Nebulas this year, and it turned out to be this group of self-publishers gaming the nomination process. Sigh.

Honestly, I'm not sure I want to know any more about it.

Try this:

http://yudhanjaya.com/2019/03/incide...award-madness/

Part of the problem seems to be that the term "Indie publisher" in some countries is used to describe small press tradpubs (or even larger tradpubs not owned by the multinationals) rather than self publishers.

And, no, you probably don't want to know more.
(I only ran into it by accident at Nate's. Tradpub catfights are far down my list of concerns.)

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Why rig the awards? The whole point of most of these movements is that the awards are already rigged in favor of certain writers and their cliques and they are just fighting fire with fire.

While some latched on the liberal verses conservative, I always viewed the sad puppies as closer to Baen authors verses Tor authors since several of the authors in the sad puppies movement were not really conservative but many have ties to Baen Books and the most the venom against them seems to have come from people associated with Tor. Some like to mix in the rabid puppy types, but I always considered that a smoke screen.

As far as why bother, well, one might as well wonder why the cliques took over the Hugo awards in the first place. People are funny creatures.

Unfortunately, that's a load of BS propagated by the puppies. For example, with the Hugo awards, there was never anything close to a lock by Tor authors, nor was there ever a case where Tor, Tor authors or editors or anyone associated with a particular publisher produced a list of 3-5 candidates with a recommendation to nominate these candidates (wink, wink). If anyone had a lock in for best novel in the last decade, BTW, it was Orbit books. The venom was not against Baen authors, it was against the people organizing the slates, and the defenders of the slates. Because there were a lot of Baen authors and editors that defended the slates, it appeared to outsiders that this was an anti-Baen movement, but that's only because of the overlap between the two groups. In 2017, an author whose series had been published entirely by Baen received the first best series award.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by bgalbrecht

Unfortunately, that's a load of BS propagated by the puppies. For example, with the Hugo awards, there was never anything close to a lock by Tor authors, nor was there ever a case where Tor, Tor authors or editors or anyone associated with a particular publisher produced a list of 3-5 candidates with a recommendation to nominate these candidates (wink, wink). If anyone had a lock in for best novel in the last decade, BTW, it was Orbit books. The venom was not against Baen authors, it was against the people organizing the slates, and the defenders of the slates. Because there were a lot of Baen authors and editors that defended the slates, it appeared to outsiders that this was an anti-Baen movement, but that's only because of the overlap between the two groups. In 2017, an author whose series had been published entirely by Baen received the first best series award.

I don't think so. There very much is a clique of similar style authors, many of whom are published by Tor or Orbit. I never said it was an anti-Baen, but rather it was the standard response that one sees anytime a clique is challenged. The commonality with sad puppies is that they are mostly Baen authors, i.e. that's where they know each other from. They aren't all conservative writers. That's my major point. The conservative angle was simply a spin put out. Now, when a group of indies does it, we see much the same spin. Hey, it worked last time, let's use it again.

[DiapDealer]

"Spin" is never justified--not in status-quo-ism, and not in retaliation for perceived slights. If both sides rely upon spin to defend their positions, neither is on the side of the angels.

My opinion is that things were working fine before "slates" became a nominating tactic. Why? Because no one has an inherent right to be considered for a literary award.

[DrNefario]

The clique was manufactured by the Puppies as an enemy to band together against. You always need an enemy. Ideally a secret conspiracy, so you never have to prove anything. And it's good to conflate several issues (conservative vs liberal, Baen vs Tor, adventure vs agenda, popularity vs art, etc) so you don't get pinned down.

Of course there are groups of people who agree about stuff, and maybe even campaign for each other, but the Hugos are an open book - anyone can sign up, anyone can nominate, anyone can vote - and the line is crossed when you start to act in bad faith, when you put your self-promotion (or your culture-war idiocy) over the good of the field as a whole.

The Nebulas are a little more closed-shop, since it's members of the SFWA that nominate and vote, but there are still plenty of those. The membership restrictions were recently relaxed to allow self-publishers - I doubt this bunch have done their fellow self-publishers many favours - and it seems from my limited engagement with the topic that this current controversy is just a bit of unsavoury self-promotion.

An award is only as good as its winners (and to some extent its shortlists). Gaming the system devalues the whole award, harming everyone - fans, publishers, writers - in exchange for short-term gain where you can cash in on its old kudos before you ruin it.

I've never been a huge fan of the Nebulas - it misses my taste more than some of the others - but I'd say it's probably the second most prestigious SF/F award.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Try this:

http://yudhanjaya.com/2019/03/incide...award-madness/

Part of the problem seems to be that the term "Indie publisher" in some countries is used to describe small press tradpubs (or even larger tradpubs not owned by the multinationals) rather than self publishers.

Hey, thanks for the link. I really enjoyed Yudhanjaya Wijeratne's blog and am curious to read his nominated story, The Messenger. I wish it were available as a standalone (though the anthology is only $0.99).

I can't speak for the people in charge of the 20Books group, but it does sound like Wijeratne and Virdi got swept up in something they have no part in and don't understand.

From what I could see, what the 20Books group is doing with the Nebulas seems far less unsavory than what the Puppies did with the Hugos. The Nebulas are voted on by the SFWA and you have to be an author to join that group. Unlike the Puppies, who had a bunch of culture warriors who hadn't read any of the books join and vote, just to screw with the awards.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Hey, thanks for the link. I really enjoyed Yudhanjaya Wijeratne's blog and am curious to read his nominated story, The Messenger. I wish it were available as a standalone (though the anthology is only $0.99).

I can't speak for the people in charge of the 20Books group, but it does sound like Wijeratne and Virdi got swept up in something they have no part in and don't understand.

From what I could see, what the 20Books group is doing with the Nebulas seems far less unsavory than what the Puppies did with the Hugos. The Nebulas are voted on by the SFWA and you have to be an author to join that group. Unlike the Puppies, who had a bunch of culture warriors who hadn't read any of the books join and vote, just to screw with the awards.

It's on my list for when I'm done with VOICES OF THE FALL.
It sounds like a fun read even though I disagree with the premise that alien invaders would go after the highest population centers. (John Ringo did it, too.)

To me the logical site for an alien invader's beachhead is Australia. Lots of space, good resources, low energy consumption and low population. Much easier to set up shop for the ground pounders.