This is the new Kindle Paperwhite 4

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The Paperwhite line is really a mid-range reader, following the classic marketing rules of Good--better--best.

On the Kindle side this is easily seen as (Basic) Kindle--Paperwhite--Oasis.
On the Kobo side it's Clara--Aura--Forma.

I think of the $130, six-inch reader (the Paperwhite, Clara HD and Glowlight 3) as the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. They're the midrange models that work for most people.

For Kobo, the 'basic' reader would be the Aura 2nd Edition.

For Kobo there's the Aura2, Clara HD, Aura H2O, Aura One and Forma. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Aura One phased out to be replaced by the Forma. They seem too similar. At least the H2O has a unique screen size.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

... plus there's a dedicated Kobo thread with links to various custom dictionaries built by MR members.

Oh, sure. Kobo is wonderfully customizable. I was just replying to post #154

Kindle Store has quite a number of dictionaries that you can purchase that function as lookup and translation dictionaries, if the ones that come with Kindle seem insufficient. I don’t think that is an option with either Nook or Kobo ecosystems.

Not only does Kobo have them, they're free!

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I don't understand the knee-jerk antipathy to bezels. You have to be able to hold the thing.

Same here. And I like page turn buttons. If I can "train" my eyes to like front-lit eReaders, the Nook Glowlight 3 would still probably be my first choice. I don't care that much about the infrastructure or store (with Calibre it's really not that big of a deal) and I only usually carry 20 (or so) books on a reader at a time, so the shelf issue is not that big of a deal to me. So long as the reading software (itself) works pretty well, I think I would be happy. All reports seem to indicate that the Glowlight 3's screen (itself) is pretty nice.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by John F

Isn't Kobo's entry level reader the Kobo Aura (2nd ed)?

It should be Aura, Clara, Aura One, Forma.

Or are you saying that the Aura and Clara are so close in price that no one would consider purchasing the Aura and just purchase the Clara?

The Aura is "last year's model" no?
Leftovers superceded by this year's Clara intro.
It gets muddy if you count everything floating around. Last I looked there were still Kindle DXs, Sony T1s, and Nook STRs, allegedly new, floating around.

As to Kindle prices, those are the official ones.
But the Basic Kindle goes on sale to $50 like clockwork, 4-6 times a year.
(Valentine's, Mother's day, Prime Day, Back to School, Black Friday, after xmas, and pretty much every time Bezos sneezes.)
Even the new PW4 is expected to drop a bit in the next few weeks.

Here:

http://www.aftvnews.com/amazon-devic...e-predictions/

The regular base Kindle drops to $49.99, down from $79.99, for every major sale, so its unlikely that this Black Friday will be any different. A sale for the new Kindle Paperwhite is more difficult to predict. The previous model usually drops to $89.99 during Black Friday, but since the new model is $10 more expensive than the old one, I’ll guess that it’ll be $99.99 during Black Friday this year, down from $129.99. The flagship Kindle Oasis usually doesn’t go on sale during Black Friday, but if it does this year, it’ll probably be no less than $199.99, down from $249.99, because that’s the lowest price it has ever been.

I'm mildly interested in the PW4. But in no rush.
If it hits $99 I might bite. Or "wait til next year!"
(There's a lot of that going around right now, usually with some sobs!)

[John F]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The Aura is "last year's model" no?
Leftovers superceded by this year's Clara intro.
It gets muddy if you count everything floating around. Last I looked there were still Kindle DXs, Sony T1s, and Nook STRs, allegedly new, floating around.

...

I think you are exaggerating. .

The Aura 2ed was and is there entry level, I think. By your logic, since the Paperwhite 4 was just released, doesn't that make the Kindle basic "last year's model"?*

*I did a Google on "wiki Kindle" and it said the Kindle 8/basic was released in 2016.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The Aura is "last year's model" no?
Leftovers superceded by this year's Clara intro.
It gets muddy if you count everything floating around. Last I looked there were still Kindle DXs, Sony T1s, and Nook STRs, allegedly new, floating around.

Except the Aura is still being sold new by Kobo (on their website) and by Walmart — so that's a completely different deal than finding a random new Kindle DX, Sony T1 or Nook Simple Touch reader online somewhere.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Except the Aura is still being sold new by Kobo (on their website) and by Walmart — so that's a completely different deal than finding a random new Kindle DX, Sony T1 or Nook Simple Touch reader online somewhere.

Yes, it's new.
So are the DX's that Amazon itself coughs up from time to time.
Those aren't refurbs or third party sales.

You've been around a while so you know how these gadgets are built by China, Inc, right? They contract for a specific lot size, the assembly lines configured, and they crank them out. Then the assembly lines are configured for another product. Whatever were in that one run is usually *all* there ever will be unless the customer orders a second or third run.

Now, the Auras when were they introduced? At what price?
Who were they aimed at?
What manufacturing date do they carry?
If you order one today, will they say june 2018, june 2017, or even older?
The question is, why would Kobo intentionally undercut their brand new Clara model by ordering more of the older model to sell for just a few bucks less? As you said, who'd prefer an Aura to a Clara? If the price diferential were bigger it would make sense but it's not big enough.

Kobo seems like a well run company, unlike Nook, so the logical assumption is the Auras are the last of last year's has batch still useful, still desirable, but priced to move. They weren't *meant* to be entry level when they were built. They may be previously unsold but if they come from a lot built before the Clara, they're leftovers. Doesn't mean they're not good readers but there simply isn't enough difference between them and the Clara in features and especially in price. From a marketing standpoint they overlap too much because they were both designed for the same customer.

Now, the basic Kindle might be leftovers, but there have been several instances since 2016, when it has gone out of stock at Amazon, sparking rumors of a new model, but a few weeks later another slow boat from China docks and the Basic Kindle is back in stock, just in time for the next big sale. Amazon sees no reason to launch a new design for the entry level. They really have little competition in the $50-80 price point. And there is plenty of design difference to justify the price jump from the Basic Kindle to the PW, which is what good marketing prefers.

Edit: Mind you, this is just marketing talk.
I have no problem buying closeouts or refurbs. Buying last year tech is a good money saving strategy for consumers. Like buying TVs in the spring after the new models have been announced but before they show up. Easy to find good deals that way.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Yes, it's new.
So are the DX's that Amazon itself coughs up from time to time.
Those aren't refurbs or third party sales.

I get your main point, but I don't think there's been a Kindle DX (sold by Amazon) in three or four years. I can still buy an Aura (Edition 2) from Kobo (or even down the street at Walmart and pick it up today). I know there hasn't been a Sony Personal Reader (PRS) sold by Sony in at least four (probably five) years. So whether it's the last half of a boatload of Auras, or new batch, it's immaterial — they're still new, they still have full warranties and they're still being sold by Kobo. Ditto with Kindle Basics (Gen 8) or Voyages. If they're still in their lineup, they're still in their lineup. (Like the Kindle Touch was for a couple years after the first Paperwhite came out.)

As it stands, at $99 (via Walmart) the Aura is closer to the Kindle Basic as "low end." The Paperwhite, Glowlight 3 and Clara are mid-range. The Forma, Oasis, Voyage Aura One, Aura H20 are at various levels of high end. Maybe the Voyage and H20 could be thought of as "upper middle class" — though the Voyage was once Kindle's high-end. In the Tolino, you have the Page (low-end, competes with the Kindle Basic), the Shine 3, competes with the Clara, Paperwhite and Glowlight 3 — the Vision 4, competes with the Voyage and H20 and the Epos, which would be their high end (Oasis, Forma and Aura One). Of course nothing fits exactly, but $130 for the Paperwhite 4 is not out of range ... unless you want to get into the $20 to remove ads which, for those who must removes ads, is an important consideration.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by rcentros

...$130 for the Paperwhite 4 is not out of range ... unless you want to get into the $20 to remove ads which, for those who must removes ads, is an important consideration.

The $20 Amazon charges to remove ads feels like such a screw job and puts me off buying any of their tech.

The Paperwhite 4 looks very nice. But it's priced about the same as the Glowlight 3 and Clara HD and they don't have ads.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by stuartjmz

I have, and I'm sure I'll miss it now I've left the Amazon. For Wodehouse, Pratchett, Allingham, Ngaio Marsh and others when I know I've seen a particular word or phrase in ONE of the books but can't remember WHICH, the Kindle feature was invaluable

I have used it several times too. I read a lot of series (mostly fantasy and sf) and sometimes I need to refresh my memory about a character or a place first mentioned in an earlier book. It would not be particularly useful when reading about characters or places with contemporary names (it's pretty pointless to search the entire library for John or Will or London or Paris ), but it works well with fantasy names, and sometimes with historical fiction too.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I get your main point, but I don't think there's been a Kindle DX (sold by Amazon) in three or four years. I can still buy an Aura (Edition 2) from Kobo (or even down the street at Walmart and pick it up today). I know there hasn't been a Sony Personal Reader (PRS) sold by Sony in at least four (probably five) years. So whether it's the last half of a boatload of Auras, or new batch, it's immaterial — they're still new, they still have full warranties and they're still being sold by Kobo. Ditto with Kindle Basics (Gen 8) or Voyages. If they're still in their lineup, they're still in their lineup. (Like the Kindle Touch was for a couple years after the first Paperwhite came out.)

As it stands, at $99 (via Walmart) the Aura is closer to the Kindle Basic as "low end." The Paperwhite, Glowlight 3 and Clara are mid-range. The Forma, Oasis, Voyage Aura One, Aura H20 are at various levels of high end. Maybe the Voyage and H20 could be thought of as "upper middle class" — though the Voyage was once Kindle's high-end. In the Tolino, you have the Page (low-end, competes with the Kindle Basic), the Shine 3, competes with the Clara, Paperwhite and Glowlight 3 — the Vision 4, competes with the Voyage and H20 and the Epos, which would be their high end (Oasis, Forma and Aura One). Of course nothing fits exactly, but $130 for the Paperwhite 4 is not out of range ... unless you want to get into the $20 to remove ads which, for those who must removes ads, is an important consideration.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

Not a problem.
Clean exchanges are fun.

About the Basic Kindle, try this:

If a product spends two thirds of its time selling at price A and a third of the time selling at Price B, you would be inclined to say its real world price (rather than list) is A. But if the product actually sells 60-70% of its units at Price B, wouldn't its real world price be closer to B than to A? Especially when the "promotional" Price B shows up at predictable times?

Amazon is a fun outfit to watch because they're tricky and play all sorts of games, especially with pricing. Everybody knows they practice variable pricing yet few actually consider what it means. For the Kindle Basic it means they can legally get away with claiming the $50 price is a sale price and the $80-100 price is the "regular" price while most of the sales come at the lower point. There's few knowledgeable folk that would even try to argue that a Kindle Basic at $80 is a fair value. But then, knowledgeable folk know to wait for one of the regularly scheduled sales so Amazon gets to eat their cake and have it too. The unwary/price-insensitive pay the higher price. Those that do their homework will find the reviews that say "wait for the sale". And they get away with it because there is no competition at either price point because there isn't much profit in selling ereader hardware at those prices. Maybe $5 if the teardown estimates can be trusted.

But $5 is $5 and their main goal isn't just to make money off the hardware but to entice readers into their ecosystem. And once they do that they get to sell books, videos, subscriptions of all kinds. Or dry goods. Which is the purpose of the ads. If they get even one click through a year, they're home free. And typically they do better than that.

It's what makes them so effective: they're upfront and low key.
You know they want to sell you stuff. And sooner or later, you'll want to buy stuff.

Or not.
But there's plenty of folk that do. And their entry level products like Basic Kindle, Echo Dot, AmazonBasics cables and batteries, are all part of the ecosystem draw.

Looking at individual items in a vacuum doesn't tell the whole story; there's always something else. Like: entry level the Basic Kindle may be, but it supports Audible. So it's not just an ebook storefront; it also sell audiobooks. And ebook/audiobook bundles.

To some people that matters.
To Amazon it does: the basic got the feature before Paperwhite.

[Gardenman]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

A six inch screen is tiny? That's the standard size for all e-reader companies. They might make different sizes as well, but their bread and butter readers are six inch. Lots of people (myself included) don't want a larger screen.

I don't understand the knee-jerk antipathy to bezels. You have to be able to hold the thing.

[QUOTE=Gardenman;3763500]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop View Post
A six inch screen is tiny? That's the standard size for all e-reader companies. They might make different sizes as well, but their bread and butter readers are six inch. Lots of people (myself included) don't want a larger screen.

I don't understand the knee-jerk antipathy to bezels. You have to be able to hold the thing.[/QUOTE}

Have another - The Forma/Oasis shape may be all the rave, with "tiny" 6 inch screen being belittled and derided, but the simple bezels of the Kindle/Clara type devices are fine with me. And with my 85 yr old Dad. We'd introduced him to Kindle via the app on his tablet, but it's lack of bezels made reading on the app very awkward for him. He's spending many hours a day immersed in his (formerly my) PW.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

The new Paperwhite looks like a very nice upgrade in my opinion. They've managed to make the Paperwhite almost as nice as the Voyage (nicer in some ways: double the storage, waterproofing and Bluetooth) for a much cheaper price.

I don't think Amazon managed it, they simply thus declared it so. The only $10 price increase compared to the old PW does not justify the upgrades. But making it a tiny bit more expensive shows that the PW is a different reader now. Amazon is again competing with price to undercut competitors.

Soon the features of the PW4 is going to be the mainstream 6" reader and others have to match it. The Clara 2 when it comes out next year will have to add water proofing to stay competetive with the PW. Amazon OTOH can sell their readers without color changing leds, because non of their premium readers ever had them. Kobo cannot afford to introduce the next reader without color changing leds, because they promoted them as necessary.

PW4 is a Voyage with a smaller profit margin. Hardware wise the missing buttons and light sensor probably save enough money to add waterproofing. Realistically it should be more expensive. Add in the plastic screen substrate, and you have Kobo Forma top end model feature in an entry level lighted reader. That is also an upgrade from the Voyage with glass substrate.

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Soon the features of the PW4 is going to be the mainstream 6" reader and others have to match it... Add in the plastic screen substrate, and you have Kobo Forma top end model feature in an entry level lighted reader. That is also an upgrade from the Voyage with glass substrate.

The plastic substrate is definitely a big pus, as is the option of different storage capacities, since it seems SD cards are dead. I'd love it if Kobo matched these features, don't care about the waterproofing. Which may be ironic, given that I'm about to buy an H2O2