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Old 01-19-2022, 11:27 AM   #1
ValTim
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Using Google Fonts as fallback for Adobe Fonts

I created an EPUB using InDesign CC, and I selected the option of embedding fonts when exporting. Then, I deleted the unnecessary body fonts, and added another one manually (to the package, content.opf and CSS declaration). The EPUB contains now an Adobe font (encrypted) in some paragraphs as well as a Google font (non-encrypted, with free license). The Adobe font should be displayed in the apps supporting encryption (such as Apple Books and ADE), and the Google font, as fallback, in the ones not supporting encryption (e.g. Kindle).
After editing the EPUB, everything is fine in the Kindle Previewer, but I notice that the apps supporting encryption mix characters from both fonts. See attached image.
Here is my CSS:
Code:
@font-face {
	font-family:Quicksand;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/Quicksand-Regular.ttf");
}
@font-face {
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/VAGRundschriftD.otf");
}
(...)
p.Numero-capitulo2 {
	color:#39a2c4;
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif;
	font-size:3em;
	font-style:normal;
	font-variant:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	line-height:1.2;
	margin-bottom:45px;
	margin-left:0;
	margin-right:0;
	margin-top:0;
	orphans:1;
	page-break-after:auto;
	page-break-before:always;
	text-align:right;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-indent:0;
	text-transform:none;
	widows:1;
}
Quicksand is the Google font, and VAG Rundschrift D, the Adobe font.
I used the Google font version directly downloaded from the Google Font website (and I did not activate the Adobe Font version in InDesign). I also tried with the OTF version from Font Squirrel, with the same results. The file encryption.xml is kept in the META-INF folder.
Is there a way to make this work as intended without breaking any license agreement? I read the thread about embedding Adobe Fonts in Kindle: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=342147. I do not want to de-obfuscate the Adobe font, but to use the encrypted and non-encrypted fonts together in an EPUB.
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Old 01-24-2022, 11:09 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
I created an EPUB using InDesign CC, and I selected the option of embedding fonts when exporting. Then, I deleted the unnecessary body fonts, and added another one manually (to the package, content.opf and CSS declaration). The EPUB contains now an Adobe font (encrypted) in some paragraphs as well as a Google font (non-encrypted, with free license). The Adobe font should be displayed in the apps supporting encryption (such as Apple Books and ADE), and the Google font, as fallback, in the ones not supporting encryption (e.g. Kindle).
After editing the EPUB, everything is fine in the Kindle Previewer, but I notice that the apps supporting encryption mix characters from both fonts. See attached image.
Here is my CSS:
Code:
@font-face {
	font-family:Quicksand;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/Quicksand-Regular.ttf");
}
@font-face {
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/VAGRundschriftD.otf");
}
(...)
p.Numero-capitulo2 {
	color:#39a2c4;
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif;
	font-size:3em;
	font-style:normal;
	font-variant:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	line-height:1.2;
	margin-bottom:45px;
	margin-left:0;
	margin-right:0;
	margin-top:0;
	orphans:1;
	page-break-after:auto;
	page-break-before:always;
	text-align:right;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-indent:0;
	text-transform:none;
	widows:1;
}
Quicksand is the Google font, and VAG Rundschrift D, the Adobe font.
I used the Google font version directly downloaded from the Google Font website (and I did not activate the Adobe Font version in InDesign). I also tried with the OTF version from Font Squirrel, with the same results. The file encryption.xml is kept in the META-INF folder.
Is there a way to make this work as intended without breaking any license agreement? I read the thread about embedding Adobe Fonts in Kindle: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=342147. I do not want to de-obfuscate the Adobe font, but to use the encrypted and non-encrypted fonts together in an EPUB.
Jesus, what is it with Quicksand lately? I feel about it as the infamous "Niagara Falls" skit, Abbott and Costello. Honestly. There's also something hinky about that font. I'd have to ask my guys to refresh my memory, but I just went through hell with it.

One note--the encrypted fonts will NOT pass ePUBcheck, IME. Adobe claims that "of course you can use them for your eBook," but what they mean is, on your computer, or any local computer--not in a retail situation.

So...we remove everything, re-embed fonts, and change the CSS. Having two of the same font seems as though it's asking for trouble.

What's the HTML and CSS around that text, the text in the image?

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Old 01-25-2022, 12:04 PM   #3
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Hi Hitch,
Thanks for your answer. I chose Quicksand because it is the closest free alternative I found to VAG Rundschrift. If you know another one, please tell me.
The file with encrypted fonts do pass EPUB check. I use the pagina EPUB-Checker. It has no errors or warnings, but there is a message stating that the fonts cannot be decrypted.
The HTML for the title is just this:
Code:
<p class="Numero-capitulo2">Capítulo dos</p>
There is no div around. I kept the body CSS from ID stylesheet:
Code:
body, div, dl, dt, dd, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p, pre, code, blockquote {
	margin:0;
	padding:0;
	border-width:0;
}
body {
	-epub-hyphens:auto;
}
According to its Asset Guide, Apple Books supports font obfuscation. The publishing guide for Kindle does not say anything against encrypted fonts, although I suppose Amazon does not display them after publication in KDP.
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Old 01-25-2022, 02:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
Hi Hitch,
Thanks for your answer. I chose Quicksand because it is the closest free alternative I found to VAG Rundschrift. If you know another one, please tell me.
I'll have to think about it. I have a font library of over 11,000 faces and I tend to license for use, so...


Quote:
The file with encrypted fonts do pass EPUB check. I use the pagina EPUB-Checker. It has no errors or warnings, but there is a message stating that the fonts cannot be decrypted.
I know for a fact you can't use that with KDP. There were limitations on that for forever and if you try to upload them, KDP rips them out of the file and that's that. That's a NoFlyZone right there. When you encrypt fonts in INDD, the head table is missing, AFAIK. (Famous last words...I've probably forgotten.)

Which version of Pagina are you using? When I run ePUBcheck (pagina, 2.04) against an encrypted ePUB, it gives me a ton of error messages. Are you assuming that "passing" is the same as "usable"? It'll validate, but you'll get a ton of INFORMATION notes. You don't see those?

(n.b.: that used to cause it to fail; now it's information. I don't know when/how that changed--one of the Nerd Birds here will know.)

Quote:
The HTML for the title is just this:
Code:
<p class="Numero-capitulo2">Capítulo dos</p>
There is no div around. I kept the body CSS from ID stylesheet:
Code:
body, div, dl, dt, dd, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p, pre, code, blockquote {
	margin:0;
	padding:0;
	border-width:0;
}
body {
	-epub-hyphens:auto;
}
According to its Asset Guide, Apple Books supports font obfuscation. The publishing guide for Kindle does not say anything against encrypted fonts, although I suppose Amazon does not display them after publication in KDP.
I don't see where you assigned a font to this. Not something other than a) the default font chosen by the user or b) a class you created somewhere that inherits. I see nothing in either in the p class or the body. What's the styling for the "Numero-Capitulo2" style?

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Old 01-25-2022, 06:33 PM   #5
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Seriously, please change font-family:Quicksand; to font-family: sans-serif;. I've had enough removing Quicksand from eBooks. Why do you actually need VAG whatever it is when sans-serif would do just fine?
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Old 01-26-2022, 11:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Which version of Pagina are you using? When I run ePUBcheck (pagina, 2.04) against an encrypted ePUB, it gives me a ton of error messages.
I am using version 2.0.6. You can see the validation in the attached image.

Quote:
I don't see where you assigned a font to this.
I assigned it in the stylesheet. It is in the first post of this thread. I copy it again:

Code:
@font-face {
	font-family:Quicksand;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/Quicksand-Regular.ttf");
}
@font-face {
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/VAGRundschriftD.otf");
}
p.Numero-capitulo2 {
	color:#39a2c4;
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif;
	font-size:3em;
	font-style:normal;
	font-variant:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	line-height:1.2;
	margin-bottom:45px;
	margin-left:0;
	margin-right:0;
	margin-top:0;
	orphans:1;
	page-break-after:auto;
	page-break-before:always;
	text-align:right;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-indent:0;
	text-transform:none;
	widows:1;
}
For me it is weird that Quicksand and VAG Rundschrift are combined in the same paragraph. I changed
Code:
font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif;
for
Code:
font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Futura, sans-serif;
, and it worked just fine. Of course, the second version does not have Quicksand embedded.
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Old 01-26-2022, 11:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Seriously, please change font-family:Quicksand; to font-family: sans-serif;. I've had enough removing Quicksand from eBooks. Why do you actually need VAG whatever it is when sans-serif would do just fine?
Is there a problem with Quicksand as font? Why do you remove it from eBooks? I've used other fonts from Google, and they are correctly displayed in almost every app.
I need VAG because the client is using this font in the print version, and requires it to be in the eBook as well. Apple is going to be the major vendor, and it should work there. The free alternatives to the font (Fredoka One, Quicksand) are not so similar.
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Old 01-26-2022, 03:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
Is there a problem with Quicksand as font? Why do you remove it from eBooks? I've used other fonts from Google, and they are correctly displayed in almost every app.
I need VAG because the client is using this font in the print version, and requires it to be in the eBook as well. Apple is going to be the major vendor, and it should work there. The free alternatives to the font (Fredoka One, Quicksand) are not so similar.
Before I get to your other post, our much-loved Wolfie, Jon, is a true curmudgeon who believes that all should do as he does, likes or wishes. He's a wonderful person, but he can sometimes conflate "good bookmaking practices" with "Jon's opinion on all things." :-) One Jon to Rule Them All, as it were.

(I did have bona fide issues with Quicksand in a print book. That's an entirely different discussion, unrelated to my opinion about the font.)

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Old 01-26-2022, 03:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
I am using version 2.0.6. You can see the validation in the attached image.



I assigned it in the stylesheet. It is in the first post of this thread. I copy it again:

Code:
@font-face {
	font-family:Quicksand;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/Quicksand-Regular.ttf");
}
@font-face {
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD;
	font-style:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	src : url("../font/VAGRundschriftD.otf");
}
p.Numero-capitulo2 {
	color:#39a2c4;
	font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif;
	font-size:3em;
	font-style:normal;
	font-variant:normal;
	font-weight:normal;
	line-height:1.2;
	margin-bottom:45px;
	margin-left:0;
	margin-right:0;
	margin-top:0;
	orphans:1;
	page-break-after:auto;
	page-break-before:always;
	text-align:right;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-indent:0;
	text-transform:none;
	widows:1;
}
For me it is weird that Quicksand and VAG Rundschrift are combined in the same paragraph. I changed
Code:
font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif;
for
Code:
font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Futura, sans-serif;
, and it worked just fine. Of course, the second version does not have Quicksand embedded.
Sorry that I missed the earlier post. Not my intention to make people repeat themselves.

In the second version of the EPUB, the main font works for all the characters of the word? It is only when you use the Quicksand font that letters are replaced? Is that the bottom line?

And it happens in no other location? Just this one sentence/line? The Futura does not show up, right?

I agree. That's damned weird. And only the reading apps like "IBooks" (or whatever they're calling it now) are displaying this mixed-font approach? Those that don't, like KP3, the original font alone displays?

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Old 01-26-2022, 04:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
Is there a problem with Quicksand as font? Why do you remove it from eBooks? I've used other fonts from Google, and they are correctly displayed in almost every app.
I need VAG because the client is using this font in the print version, and requires it to be in the eBook as well. Apple is going to be the major vendor, and it should work there. The free alternatives to the font (Fredoka One, Quicksand) are not so similar.
If you are selling eBooks for Kindle, then you don't want embedded fonts if you can help it. Most people won't be trying the Publisher font option to see if there are embedded fonts.

Then you have ePub where you do see the embedded fonts, but if the person doesn't like the font, s/he won't be happy.
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Old 01-27-2022, 09:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
In the second version of the EPUB, the main font works for all the characters of the word? It is only when you use the Quicksand font that letters are replaced? Is that the bottom line?
Yes, that is correct.

Quote:
And it happens in no other location? Just this one sentence/line? The Futura does not show up, right?
It just happens in the paragraphs where font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif; is applied. If the title is longer, you can see more characters displayed with the fallback font. See new attachment.

The second version of the EPUB, just with Futura and the Adobe fonts, has no problem at all. Trouble begins when encrypted and non-encrypted fonts are together. In the attachment, you can see the mixed characters in the next paragraph as well, which has font-family:"Expressway Xb", sans-serif;
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Old 01-27-2022, 09:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
Yes, that is correct.



It just happens in the paragraphs where font-family:VAGRundschriftD, Quicksand, sans-serif; is applied. If the title is longer, you can see more characters displayed with the fallback font. See new attachment.

The second version of the EPUB, just with Futura and the Adobe fonts, has no problem at all. Trouble begins when encrypted and non-encrypted fonts are together. In the attachment, you can see the mixed characters in the next paragraph as well, which has font-family:"Expressway Xb", sans-serif;
Well,that's a damn poser.

I have to wonder if this would persist, even after the ePUB underwent intake and pre-publishing processing, at Apple, et al.

I do think, though, that it makes the concept of "encrypted fonts supported" sort of...misleading. :-) You seem to be stuck with either ALL encrypteds, or none.

BTW--here's another question--if you mix fonts in the fallback and BOTH are encrypted, does it still happen?

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Old 01-27-2022, 10:25 AM   #13
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Is it possible that the encrypted font is also being subsetted?

If text was added or changed after font subsetting then there may be characters used in the book that are missing from the subsetted font. That could result in the missing glyphs being rendered using the fallback font on some platforms.
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Old 01-27-2022, 11:00 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhowell View Post
Is it possible that the encrypted font is also being subsetted?

If text was added or changed after font subsetting then there may be characters used in the book that are missing from the subsetted font. That could result in the missing glyphs being rendered using the fallback font on some platforms.
Oh, Jhowell! That was exactly the issue! Thank you very much!
I changed and added text after encryption and subsetting. Now I can use the Adobe font with the Google font as fallback.
Before reading your answer, I was trying another encrypted font as fallback (as suggested by Hitch), but the mixed-character problem persisted. The explanation was the same.
Let's see if everything work as intended after publication in Apple and in Amazon.
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Old 01-27-2022, 02:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValTim View Post
Oh, Jhowell! That was exactly the issue! Thank you very much!
I changed and added text after encryption and subsetting. Now I can use the Adobe font with the Google font as fallback.
Before reading your answer, I was trying another encrypted font as fallback (as suggested by Hitch), but the mixed-character problem persisted. The explanation was the same.
Let's see if everything work as intended after publication in Apple and in Amazon.
OH! Subsetting! In a zillion years, I never thought you would subset, as they were already encrypting and as you see, that can yield very unsatisfactory results.

Also, n.b.: be very very very careful on Amazon with subsetting, particularly around subsetting ligatures that YOU did not use in the ebooks--but that Amazon will use in the LookInside!!!

Hitch
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