Kindle user says Amazon remotely wiped her whole library [UPDATED: see first post]

[meeera]

Originally Posted by ApK

Can you sell or give away a fireworks exhibit after watching it?

Would you buy a firework that came with a licence that said only one person was ever allowed to look at it?

[DiapDealer]

Ah... analogy wars.
Always such pointless fun.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by meeera

Would you buy a firework that came with a licence that said only one person was ever allowed to look at it?

Do people buy movie tickets that only allow them (one person) in to see a movie one time?
Heck, those ticket's cost more than the DVD sometimes.

Do people buy airline tickets that only give them one flight, and are not transferable?

It come's down to this: if you want the benefits of paper and glue, then buy paper and glue.

The mere fact that paper and glue and glue affords certain benefits is NOT a convicting argument of why a abstract digital data representation should behave the same way. I think we can better arguments.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Ah... analogy wars.
Always such pointless fun.

My point is that "ebook = pbook" is an equally pointless analogy.

[BoldlyDubious]

Originally Posted by ApK

It come's down to this: if you want the benefits of paper and glue, then buy paper and glue.

It comes down to this: if publishers and vendors want the benefits of ebooks (negligible cost for "printing" and distribution, no unsold copies, and so on) and they want to charge consumers a price similar to that of pbooks, publishers and vendors should give to consumers at least the same set of rights and possibilities that they get with a pbook: not less.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

at least the same set of rights and possibilities that they get with a pbook: not less.

No, "same" and "less" are not the only choices. There is also "more but different." Which is what it must be because they ARE different. They have different properties and require different rules.
If you could instantly and at no cost blast a thousand identical copies of a paperback to everyone on your email list, I assure you, you would not have the rights you have now.

The fact that they are DIFFERENT means that they can be allowed DIFFERENT rules.

Now, whether that set of different rules is "more" "less" "better" or "worse" is a different matter. But there is no rational argument to made, imho, that they need be the SAME for same's sake alone.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ApK

My point is that "ebook = pbook" is an equally pointless analogy.

Oh, I wasn't singling you out—or even disagreeing with you, really. I just get a big kick out of seeing the "dueling analogies" game that inevitably gets played when discussing things like this. There's never one "AHA!" analogy that absolutely trumps all others (nor can there be), but that never seems to stop people from trying to come up with the perfect one (that builds on the previous one), regardless. I call them one-up-ogies.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Oh, I wasn't singling you out—or even disagreeing with you, really. I just get a big kick out of seeing the "dueling analogies" game that inevitably gets played when discussing things like this. There's never one "AHA!" analogy that absolutely trumps all others (nor can there be), but that never seems to stop people from trying to come up with the perfect one (that builds on the previous one), regardless. I call them one-up-ogies.

Hmm. You mean like this:

[hapipiko]

@ApK,
You start making a competition of the difference betweeen ebooks and pbooks.
And i am not against ebooks or pbooks, i am pro-reading. And i want to be respected as a buyer, not threatet like a criminal.
I expect the same threatment as a buyer when i buy a pbook or and ebook.
Here in the Netherlands prices are about the same, but as a buyer you do not have the same rights when you buy 'a license to read, for a certain period' when you buy an ebook.
the tax-law here says : DRM makes it to rent, and that is a service and so you have to pay the high tax-level, witch is 21%. pbook are on the low-tax level = 6%.
I am reading for more then 4 years ebooks and I love it, especially on an e-ink screen with mij Kobo witch i bought this spring, after my iLiad V2 finally gets very old and slow.

When i am reading i forget from what medium i am reading and in that way for me there is no difference between these books.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by hapipiko

'a license to read, for a certain period' when you buy an ebook.

What certain period?

When i am reading i forget from what medium i am reading and in that way for me there is no difference between these books.

When I watch a DVD movie in my home theater, I am just as immersed in the content as when I watch in a theater. While I expect to treated fairly, as a valued customer, by both the movie theater, and the DVD publisher, that does not mean I should expect the theater to rewind for me if I want to see a bit again, or pause when I go out for popcorn.

Same content, different formats, different rules.

[koland]

Originally Posted by ApK

Do people buy movie tickets that only allow them (one person) in to see a movie one time?
Heck, those ticket's cost more than the DVD sometimes.

Do people buy airline tickets that only give them one flight, and are not transferable?

Or, would you buy a DVD that didn't allow the entire family to watch at once? Even if you don't take advantage of your right to give it away, resell it, loan it, etc.

As for those airline tickets - no, people didn't used to buy non-transferable tickets. After all, airlines were selling the space in that seat for that flight - who it was, wasn't relevant. But, they then discovered the allure (and profit) of selling a single seat multiple times and sold it as "increased security". Which has morphed into today's airports, with decorated soldier/seniors practically strip searched in view of their family (while barely able to stand without a cane ... which they are able to take onboard, after the search) and everyone walking around in their socks (to emphasize your powerlessness and inferior position to the uneducated searchers who are also looking at your naked body thru the scanners -- never mind that it's a crime in most places, just for you, not them). Many of the overtly visible "security measures" at airports have zero effect (other than to line someone's pocket) and are often easily accomplished thru other means (such as decent sniffer technology you walk thru - sure, it might miss a knife, but you can kill someone with a ballpoint just as easily).

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by ApK

pBooks and eBooks are different things. Why would you expect them to be exactly the same in those respects? Can you sell or give away a fireworks exhibit after watching it?

Everyone can come up with analogies that either do or do not show whether they should be the same or not. Which makes the analogies a little pointless imo.

What it comes down to is, ebooks are a product, albeit a digital one. Either you think a product should have the same rights when it's delivered digitally as when it's delivered burnt on a physical disk, or you don't. Both are valid opinions but only one should be selected. At the moment content providers are treating digital goods as both the same as physical items for some laws and not the same for other laws (depending on how it best benefits them and sod the consumer)

Currently the courts (in the EU at least) are starting to agree that rights should be the same for products distributed digitally as they are physically and imho that's the correct decision (but as mentioned, not the only valid one).

[ApK]

(note to self: No more airline analogies around koland.)

[ApK]

Originally Posted by JoeD

What it comes down to is, ebooks are a product, albeit a digital one. Either you think a product should have the same rights when it's delivered digitally as when it's delivered burnt on a physical disk, or you don't.

I would agree that AN EBOOK delivered on a disc should have the same rights as AN EBOOK delivered over the wire, but I do not a agree that physical ink print of a novel is the same product as a digital representation of that novel. Different properties, different uses, different concerns, different abilities, different product.

What it comes down to for me is that we should have these additional rights over ebooks -- the right lend, resell, format shift, back up, etc.-- not because of some comparison to a pbook, but be cause we think it's important, and good, for our benefit both as consumers, and as a society. For all the same sorts of reasons that we got ourselves right of rescission, lemon laws, fair use doctrine, and micro-USB standardization on cell phones!

Because we, as free people, deserve it! DEMAND IT!

WHO'S WITH ME?!?!?

[hapipiko]

@ApK,
DRM allows ebooks to be read for a certain period. Some librairies work with that: ebooks are no longer to open after 3 weeks.
Or publishers can set this period on half a year or 2 years. That is the period.
And that is why most people i know strip DRM off, from their fresh bought ebooks.

Same content, different formats, different rules.

This is the root of all piracy today, and, not to forget: the price-policy wich is, as we say "over the top"