ebook piracy numbers

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by Fbone

I hear e-book prices are too expensive and unrealistic therefore it's justifiable to take from the torrents.
I hear of geographical restrictions and so they are "forced" to go to darknet because it is something I have a right to possess.
I hear some go to torrent to look for new material when Google, Amazon et al have 1.8 million e-books available.

So now for those who download illegally I will question their sense of honesty, trustworthiness and character. Perhaps, it is worse than I think it is. How does their conscience work with other of life's choices? And then I feel bad that I feel this way toward others but when I lose a small amount of respect for someone it doesnt usually return.

But it is my feelings and my problem.

Well, here is a situation for you to ponder. I have purchased about 400 books from ereader.com over the past several years. 2 months ago, I went to load one on my Ipad, and couldn't do it. I contacted tech support, and was given the usual drivel. For over 2 months I was unable to access books that I shelled out cold hard cash for.

I use a couple of these books as references- so I obtained copies for free. And I don't feel bad in the least bit. I paid good money to those bozos, and because of some squabble they were having with publishers, was prevented from accessing material I paid for.

And here is another situation to ponder- I bought a copy of Mac OSX Internals, paper, for almost $80. And when I bought there was no pdf version. The publisher came out with that a few weeks later, and wanted $45 for it. No discount or anything for buyers of the paper book. So I grabbed a copy for free, and didn't feel bad about that either.

Philosophy is nice, but so is pragmatism. And the simple pragmatic truth is that if publishers treated their customers with respect- by pricing ebooks reasonably, and by making their purchase convenient, there would be little incentive for piracy. Every time a publisher wants to charge hardcover prices for an ebook, they are helping piracy thrive.

And all of the people making holier-than-thou arguments about piracy should consider the Itunes store. It is doing pretty well. Why? All the music available there can be had for free, from various illicit sources. But people still buy it- because of price and convenience....

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by lord_blackfang

People are prone to coming up with arbitrary moral codes that make them feel superior to others. Piracy is just another outlet for this.

Yeah, bad, bad piracy. It has done many evil things- like make Mr. Bill Gates the richest man in the world.....

[wgrimm]

I was considering piracy after having read these posts, and I think that sometimes piracy can be a good thing. For example, a year or so ago I downloaded a complete set of the 1960s comic book "Space Family Robinson," published by Gold Key starting in the early 60s.

Now, for those nitpickers that want to condemn me for this, they should first realize that I own a complete set of the paper originals, and they are extremely hard to come by.

But consider- no one lost any money here- the comics have been long out of print. Gold Key went out of business years ago, back in the 90s Valiant purchased rights to this comic and was rumoured to be reprinting several of them. Never happened. Valiant is out of business now also. No one lost any money because these comics were scanned and made available, and my guess is many people benefitted.

So, here we have a situation where no one lost any money, readers benefitted, and culturally we all benefitted because these items were digitized and made more permanent. I don't see much difference between what this pirate did and what Google is doing with Google Books. The human race as a whole benefits when its cultural heritage is made more lasting (and some would even argue- like librarians, for example- when it is made available freely, like in public libraries).

In fact, I see a way for some savvy publishers to make a ton of money from books long out of print- digitize these books and make them available as ebooks, and charge reasonably for them, like $3 or $4. Or less. The books were long ago paid for, so what is earned is almost pure profit. Why let the pirates have all the fun- the publishers could be earning cash for what the pirates are giving away.

Sadly, there is not much innovation like this going on. The publishers are clinging to hundred year old business models, whining about piracy, and wondering why readers won't pay hardcover prices for ebooks.

Outfits like Smashwords are great- they seem to understand what most sellers and publishers do not....

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Since that appears to be directed at me, I'd like to make a few points:

First of all, I don't believe I've ever used "hateful insults" in a disagreement, not least because you've never successfully punched holes in my arguments...

I never accused you specifically of using hateful insults and I apologize for giving you that impression. My intent was to say that when I have argued here on this issue, many posters did resort to those insults when they ran out of counterarguments.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by sassanik

I question how many sales are lost through piracy. I am not saying that there are not lost sales. I simply question how many people who download pirated ebooks actually read them and how many would have bought them in different circumstances.


Amy

Not ebooks specifically, but the only independent (ie not entertainment industry funded) research that has ever been carried out said that people who download unauthorised content spend 20% more on legitimate digital content than people who don't download.

So that would suggest that piracy has a positive impact on profits, not a negative one. Which makes sense if you think about it. People who only download things because they are free were never going to buy it anyway, and it serves as a free sample/advert for people who download things to see if they like them or not.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by mikij

What is interesting is the following: the same PD eBooks that are free on Gutenberg and elsewhere, are sold at Amazon and other sites (B&N, Kobo, etc.).
This is quite indecent. They are not better (it seems that many are full of errors, sometimes more than the free ones), copyright is the same (free) and publishers just want to take a lot of money for no work at all.

This may push people to visit the free PD books sites, but certainly not the darknet.

The average Kindle or Sony, etc owner will only ever buy from the built in/official ebook shop that comes attached to it. This is why JA Konrath hasn't seen any negative impact on his sales despite openly encouraging piracy of his ebooks.

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by greencat

I guess you've taken their ability to earn some cash from you.

Perhaps. Though at this point we're running around on a semantic playground, rather than talking about any tangible, legally possessible property. That I ultimately purchased three of the four books I'd read further suggests no loss of ability to earn cash from me even after I'd read the books.

But then that's just me. I know people like your friend, as well. I have a nephew who downloads movies and music all night long, never paying for anything. Though in his case, he can't afford to (being unemployed), I've no doubt he wouldn't pay even if he could.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Theft is an extremely loaded word and a legally defined offense.

The record industry, the movie industry and the software industry use the word a lot, but nobody that these industries have sued have been convicted of theft. It's called Copyright Infringement.

Let's use the right words.

It is mind rape. You are taking pleasure from someone's thoughts without their consent.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Fbone

I am more concerned with people's mentality and character than actual numbers.

I hear e-book prices are too expensive and unrealistic therefore it's justifiable to take from the torrents.
I hear of geographical restrictions and so they are "forced" to go to darknet because it is something I have a right to possess.
I hear some go to torrent to look for new material when Google, Amazon et al have 1.8 million e-books available.

So now for those who download illegally I will question their sense of honesty, trustworthiness and character. Perhaps, it is worse than I think it is. How does their conscience work with other of life's choices? And then I feel bad that I feel this way toward others but when I lose a small amount of respect for someone it doesnt usually return.

But it is my feelings and my problem.

Anyone who objects to having free samples of their work online can easily have it removed or have references to it removed from Google. I think anyone who did that would be making a huge financial mistake, but it is their choice.

[lord_blackfang]

You know what would make me pay for more of the intellectual property I consume? If the author got most of the cover price and the publisher got a small margin for their proofreading and marketing services, not the other way around.

[BillSmithBooks]

I do not believe any reports I see about piracy = lost sales.

Many people are, by nature, hoarders/collectors and often grab something just because they can, even if they never would have bought the product in the first place.

Yes, some people just download instead of buying...some have the means and just choose to take, whereas others take because buying would be a real hardship for them. I think many downloads are "Hey, I wonder if this is any good," just to try something and sample it, especially if by a lesser known artist or author.

But overall, I believe only a small percentage of unauthorized downloads are lost sales.

And it is my belief that people will often "sample" a product they acquired for free and then, if they become a fan, will go on to support the creator's other products if the those products are accessible (open formats, non-DRMed, no geographic restrictions) and priced fairly.

Be reasonable to your readers and they will support you.

That said, I take huge issue with the people who justify the use of torrents and other means of unauthorized downloads.

Such users may not consider downloads "theft" on the theory that they are not depriving the creator of physical property, but unauthorized downloads are still immoral and unethical. It is not different than, for example, "borrowing" a neighbor's property without permission or lounging on a neighbor's lawn all day while they are gone at work -- "see, I didn't steal from them." No, but you were violating their rights and you acted unethically.

Instead of just taking without permission, why don't the "pirates" look for and support the creators who do "get it" and allow readers to share, who sell their products at a fair price without DRM-crippling?

[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

In fact, I see a way for some savvy publishers to make a ton of money from books long out of print- digitize these books and make them available as ebooks, and charge reasonably for them, like $3 or $4. Or less. The books were long ago paid for, so what is earned is almost pure profit. Why let the pirates have all the fun- the publishers could be earning cash for what the pirates are giving away.

Sadly, there is not much innovation like this going on. The publishers are clinging to hundred year old business models, whining about piracy, and wondering why readers won't pay hardcover prices for ebooks.

Outfits like Smashwords are great- they seem to understand what most sellers and publishers do not....

I agree completely. This could be a huge profit center for anyone who pulls their head out of the sand...

I remember when DVDs and Video Tapes were often $30+ per movie...

Now you can buy hundreds of different titles for around $5 at WalMart and people buy them by the shopping cart full because they are cheap enough to be impulse purchases...everyone is happy with this arrangement.

[lord_blackfang]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

In fact, I see a way for some savvy publishers to make a ton of money from books long out of print- digitize these books and make them available as ebooks, and charge reasonably for them, like $3 or $4. Or less. The books were long ago paid for, so what is earned is almost pure profit. Why let the pirates have all the fun- the publishers could be earning cash for what the pirates are giving away.

This is what Steam and GOG.com are doing with old computer games and let me tell you, I bought a ton of classics from them that I pirated as a kid, even those I don't intend to play ever again. I even bought some that I already own in hardcopy, because it's easier to download them for a few bucks than to try and get those ancient CDs working on Win 7.

[Terisa de morgan]

I say nothing about piracy (good, right, accurate, inaccurate). I only say that figures about losses because of illegal content download are statistical constructs based on some suppositions they don't explain and the publishers try and show them like a solid accounting figures. You can't quantify something that doesn't exist. I mean, you can't count what you haven't sold (unless it's a material thing that has been broken in some sense), regardless the reason.

[corona]

Props to Worldwalker for a very cogent response. In terms of quantum, nobody knows or can know, and those in control of the discourse -- i.e. the evil capitalists -- can and do say absolutely anything that will protect or advance what they see as their interests in profit.

I think the problem is that the concept of ownership just doesn't work anymore in many fields. The notion that there's this thing, and it's my property or yours, defensible morally and legally, is kind of over. That's cold comfort to many involved, including creators and industry, but I just think trying to figure out how much, in terms of goods, moral insult, and social cost or benefit is inherently a dead end.