Overused Silly Sci-Fi Science.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

That reminded me of the old Flash Gordon episodes we watched on TV in the 50s...

Same ones (though I watched in the 60s... how old are you?). Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials--confusing to many, since they starred the same actor and featured most of the same sets and costumes--are so full of what can be considered the original SF tropes (conquering alien dictators, flying men, cloaks of invisibility, hand held energy weapons, force fields, jetpacks, floating cities and more) that they've become textbook examples of the "childhood of SF," full of fantastic but pretty-much-impossible ideas. The SF of a 6-year-old.

Star Trek (TOS) being the textbook example of "the adolescence of SF:" fantastic but supposedly-conceivable ideas. The SF of a teenager.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Same ones (though I watched in the 60s... how old are you?). Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials--confusing to many, since they starred the same actor and featured most of the same sets and costumes--are so full of what can be considered the original SF tropes (conquering alien dictators, flying men, cloaks of invisibility, hand held energy weapons, force fields, jetpacks, floating cities and more) that they've become textbook examples of the "childhood of SF," full of fantastic but pretty-much-impossible ideas. The SF of a 6-year-old.

Star Trek (TOS) being the textbook example of "the adolescence of SF:" fantastic but supposedly-conceivable ideas. The SF of a teenager.

I'm 61; born in 1950. In a couple of months, I'll be old enough for Social Security. I don't think that's middle-age anymore. I heard someone recently describe middle age as that time of life when you still go to bed at night believing you'll feel better in the morning, and I no longer labor under that delusion.

Yeah, those old ψ-φ shows may have been simplistic and lacked the special effects of today's blockbusters, but they sure spurred a child's imagination!

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by andyh2000

Looking at all the related videos I think it was supposed to be religious. Shame about the mistakes (eg people 500 years ago didn't think the world was flat - a Greek calculated the circumference of the globe about 2000 years ago).

Andrew

The point they make is still solid, and handily applies to this thread even if it was not perfect.

[Annie Seixas]

For me it's not so much using cliches, as not using them in ways that are entertaining enough. Fiction isn't reality but a re-organization of reality. The trick is to make the reader think you've really earned your conclusion. If your outcome is too facile, that's when sci-fi cliches become annoying

[Penforhire]

There are authors who consider good writing to be avoidance of cliche. Cat Valente writes an interesting rant in Charlie Stross' blog (and see part 2 as well!) -- http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog...-a-numeri.html

[altworld]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

There are authors who consider good writing to be avoidance of cliche. Cat Valente writes an interesting rant in Charlie Stross' blog (and see part 2 as well!) -- http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog...-a-numeri.html

That would depend on what style of book is being written, a good fun romp should lean on the odd cliche, and a good story with clever writing does from time to time refer to them. We are writing to entertain among other things.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

There are authors who consider good writing to be avoidance of cliche.

I see no reason to avoid them outright... after all, cliches happen in real life. Why not in novels? But I agree with Annie, the trick is in using them properly, like any other story element.

[QuantumIguana]

We're told to avoid cliche, but just what really is a cliche? Some people might say that a plumber who likes beer and football is a cliche. But it really isn't, it's real. The plumber who likes merlot and balley is also real, just less common.

You run into a problem with cliche when it is gets to be unreal, when people are only like that in fiction. People then stop being able to relate to the characters.

[Penforhire]

To me cliche means a set of expectations. That plumber who likes beer and football is a cliche because it triggers a set of expectations. If you just roll along, meeting those expectations, it can be argued you are being lazy and not writing the best possible piece (see link I posted above). If he drinks Merlot and Baileys then you broke the stereotype... and maybe introduced another, lol.

I got into arguments with my writers groups in the past about cliche because it isn't obvious to every reader. But enough people saying it makes it true. I wrote a fantasy piece and merely used the phrase, "standing on a grassy knoll." I was blown away by how many other writers got completely hung up right there. "But... grassy knoll! Kennedy assassination!" WTF? is my response. The story had nothing pointing in that direction. Those two words were abusive cliche, even with no parallel context?! More than half of a large group said yes. Sigh.

Good written fiction isn't "real" so what does it matter if cliche happens to also be real? That doesn't validate its use in a story. Dialog is a perfect example or something real but to-be-avoided. If you transcribe a tape recorded conversation you will generally have a weak mess compared to properly written dialog.

I am probably more guilty of cliche than most of you but I recognize it is a weakness. When I use a cliche I am sliding along on connotations instead of using subtle exposition to create character expectations.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Hey, these are supposed to be bits about silly sci-fi science... not silly writing habits! So, to get us back on track...

...uh...

...what have we not done yet?...

Oh! I know! The attractive alien that turns out to be a fierce man-killer!

[QuantumIguana]

One reason that the Twilight Zone was so popular was that the characters were real - the audience knew people like that, and could relate to them. Going overboard to avoid "cliche" leads to characters that the reader can't relate to, because they aren't real. Reality is never cliche.

Cliches are cartoon versions of reality. Captain Lincoln Stern from Heavy Metal is a cliche, Captain Zapp Brannigan from Futurama is a cliche.

[altworld]

I always thought a cliche and a stereotype never existed until I started meeting them everyday...

[Penforhire]

Steve, ye gods has that one been overdone! If they have golden skin, look out! And is it the corollary trope to say you should always trust the uglier more disgusting alien?

[dworth]

Show me this Earth custom you call 'love'.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by altworld

I always thought a cliche and a stereotype never existed until I started meeting them everyday...

Yes. There is a reason they exist...

You need some stereotypes and cliche's in your book if you want the world to feel real. It is as with anything else in in art... the trick is in how much you use, and what effect are you going for.