John D MacDonald is Back! - Page 7

tompe · 08-09-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's copyright infringement, plain and simple. Once the loan period expires you are infringing copyright; you no longer have a license to read the book. It's no different to piracy.

Really, in what way is it copyright infringement?

You do not get licenses to read. The distributor of the book probably had a license. A license to distribute copies with a specific DRM on it.

I would say that the problem is that you are breaking the contract by removing the DRM. In the same way as you do when you buy books from bookstores and remove the DRM.

HarryT · 08-09-2013, 04:51 PM

Ok, let me explain further:

The library buys a licence to lend out a certain number of copies of the book simultaneously. For the sake of illustration, let's suppose it's 3 copies.

3 people borrow the book, including you, but you remove the DRM from your copy. Your loan expires, and the next person in the queue borrows the book. The library has only purchased a licence for 3 copies of the book, but there are now 4 readable copies: the 3 that are legitimately lent out, and your DRM-stripped copy. You have no legal right to retain your copy beyond the loan period. You are committing copyright infringement if you do so.

tompe · 08-09-2013, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Ok, let me explain further:

The library buys a licence to lend out a certain number of copies of the book simultaneously. For the sake of illustration, let's suppose it's 3 copies.

3 people borrow the book, including you, but you remove the DRM from your copy. Your loan expires, and the next person in the queue borrows the book. The library has only purchased a licence for 3 copies of the book, but there are now 4 readable copies: the 3 that are legitimately lent out, and your DRM-stripped copy. You have no legal right to retain your copy beyond the loan period. You are committing copyright infringement if you do so.

Of course you have a legal right to keep the file as long as you want. The library have distributed the copy to me and I can keep it as long as I want. It is removing the DRM that is the problem but that is not copyright infringement.

Elfwreck · 08-09-2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's copyright infringement, plain and simple. Once the loan period expires you are infringing copyright; you no longer have a license to read the book. It's no different to piracy.

Stripping the DRM of a library book is no more copyright infringement than stripping the DRM from a purchased book. In both cases, an unauthorized copy is made of a book you legally have the right to read.

Right now, with the courts leaning towards "you license your ebooks instead of purchasing them," there's no legal difference in your rights to do things with the two kinds of ebooks.

Keeping the library book longer than the borrow period may be a breach of contract, but it's not a violation of copyright law; no copy is made by keeping it.

I really don't see any moral difference between stripping the DRM from a library book, and taping a show from HBO to watch it later. In both cases, you have access to copyrighted material for a limited time, and you're taking steps to make it available for personal use after that time is over. In both cases, you're not causing problems for anyone else who wants access. In both, if you hadn't kept a copy, you might've been convinced to buy it instead.

There might even be more legal right to strip the DRM from a library book, if you want to read it on a device with features not supported by the DRM'd version--like TTS.

Victoria · 08-10-2013, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Ok, let me explain further:

The library buys a licence to lend out a certain number of copies of the book simultaneously. For the sake of illustration, let's suppose it's 3 copies.

3 people borrow the book, including you, but you remove the DRM from your copy. Your loan expires, and the next person in the queue borrows the book. The library has only purchased a licence for 3 copies of the book, but there are now 4 readable copies: the 3 that are legitimately lent out, and your DRM-stripped copy. You have no legal right to retain your copy beyond the loan period. You are committing copyright infringement if you do so.

I agree. You can rationalize doing it for the reasons given - but two wrongs don't make a right. Also the ease of removing the drm is partly why publishers are charging libraries so much - so in the end stripping the drm hurts the average library user - not the "unfair" publisher.

That said - many people won't abide by the honour system, because they feel many publishers are not acting honourably. As several people have said in this thread- charging $12 for the ebook, when the paperback is $8 is unjustifiable.

To me, libraries are close to sacred - so I won't break their rules. But I do feel incensed by the despicable gouging publishers are subjecting libraries to. It's unconscionable.

End of rant.

HarryT · 08-10-2013, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victoria

As several people have said in this thread- charging $12 for the ebook, when the paperback is $8 is unjustifiable.

That very rarely happens. I buy a lot of commercial ebooks (normally 3-5 a week) and I generally pay no more than about 60-75% of the price of the paperback for them, which I think is reasonable.

Victoria · 08-10-2013, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That very rarely happens. I buy a lot of commercial ebooks (normally 3-5 a week) and I generally pay no more than about 60-75% of the price of the paperback for them, which I think is reasonable.

Honestly, I buy many books for less than paper, too, but also see I see higher than paper often here in Canada. I would consider 60-75% of paper very reasonable as well. And if it's a new release, 85-90%. The reductions would acknowledge the cost savings in paper, transport, storage etc, but provide a fair return on the other costs. We want people to keep writing.

HarryT · 08-10-2013, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victoria

Honestly, I buy many books for less than paper, too, but also see I see higher than paper often here in Canada.

Is that because the list price of the ebook is higher than that of the pbook, or simply because the retailer has discounted the pbook more steeply? The publisher certainly can't be held responsible for the latter!

Victoria · 08-10-2013, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Is that because the list price of the ebook is higher than that of the pbook, or simply because the retailer has discounted the pbook more steeply? The publisher certainly can't be held responsible for the latter!

That could be, and is a fair point. I'd never thought about the distinction - but it could be Amazon or Kobo / Indigo, instead of the publisher.

BelleZora · 08-10-2013, 10:57 PM

If I think I'll be unable to finish a library book before the loan expires, I download from the Amazon Cloud to my second Kindle, turn off the wireless, and return the book. It disappears from my Paperwhite, appears again for loan at the library, and I then finish it at my leisure on my 'unwired' Kindle. No DRM is stripped and I assume nobody cares that I have circumvented the loan period by a few days. But perhaps someone will tell me otherwise.

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08-09-2013, 04:51 PM	#92
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Ok, let me explain further: The library buys a licence to lend out a certain number of copies of the book simultaneously. For the sake of illustration, let's suppose it's 3 copies. 3 people borrow the book, including you, but you remove the DRM from your copy. Your loan expires, and the next person in the queue borrows the book. The library has only purchased a licence for 3 copies of the book, but there are now 4 readable copies: the 3 that are legitimately lent out, and your DRM-stripped copy. You have no legal right to retain your copy beyond the loan period. You are committing copyright infringement if you do so.

08-10-2013, 10:57 PM	#100
BelleZora Wizard Posts: 1,432 Karma: 25151986 Join Date: May 2012 Location: Seattle, US Device: Kindle Oasis 3, Kobo Libra 2	If I think I'll be unable to finish a library book before the loan expires, I download from the Amazon Cloud to my second Kindle, turn off the wireless, and return the book. It disappears from my Paperwhite, appears again for loan at the library, and I then finish it at my leisure on my 'unwired' Kindle. No DRM is stripped and I assume nobody cares that I have circumvented the loan period by a few days. But perhaps someone will tell me otherwise.