Sigil’s Future Direction (Post 0.4.x)

[user_none]

I've put together a post about where I want to take Sigil. I'm still open to suggestions and I want to hear people's thought's. If what I have in mind is way off from what people want Sigil to be, I'm willing to revise my plans.

[theducks]

John
Interesting observation that Sigil users tend to be Power users.
( I always thought you had to be a Power User to get Word to do it your way )
I use Book View mainly for proofing, Splitting (when a REGEX insertion won't do), line joining and word spacing repairs.
CV for just about all else (and undoing some of the artifacts of adding a line before a H tag)
2 things I would like to see
1) a User Macro package for repetitive keystrokes (Eg wrap selected text in a <span... ) BTW if you could figure out how to "Paste into Code" while in BV, this would probably grab a bunch more users.

2) (Wanted,probably due to lousy short term memory) Move the CSS (always in CV format anyway) over to new tab(s) in the Book browser window. It can be used a Coding Reference while editing.

[Jabby]

I never thought of myself as a "power user". But it must be so, since I rescue public domain books and use Sigil, Calibre and Notepad++ as my primary tools.

I only use book view for splitting chapters and proofing, while code view is used for all other editing. So WYSIWYG is not very important to me unless it is needed to proof.

You mentioned that you had "marked a number of issues on the issue tracker as Milestone-0.5". Which ones were they? I have a particular interest in the "zoom" enhancement (issue #637). Any idea when that might show up?.

Regards - John

[user_none]

Originally Posted by Jabby

You mentioned that you had "marked a number of issues on the issue tracker as Milestone-0.5". Which ones were they?

Here is the list of all 0.5 goals.

Originally Posted by Jabby

I have a particular interest in the "zoom" enhancement (issue #637). Any idea when that might show up?.

I set it to be blocked on 206 which is the need for a preferences dialog. Some work has been started on this by a contributor.

[adv_dp_fan]

First off, good job on 0.4.2, working nicely for me at the moment.

I am probably the odd man out here and I don't really consider myself a "power user", I am mainly using Sigil to clean up and produce the final ebook from my own digitization projects. It is the final step in a long process that uses several different programs and mostly used to set my OCD'ness at ease about the way the books are formatted.

I mainly work in Book view unless there is something I can't do in that view such as changing styles. It is really nice because it handles a bunch of the coding for me, for example, if I'm typing, I don't want to have to keep adding the same <p> code all the time, BV does that for me which is nice. It is one of the features of Sigil I really like. If there was a style editor then I'd probably spend even more time in BV.

There are things I might like but as long as Sigil keeps being the best tool at opening an epub file, letting me edit it and save it back out, it will continue to be in my toolbox.

[DaleDe]

One useful feature for WYSIWYG would be to include the class entries from the CSS in the drop down list that currently has only headings and normal. This one change would help users editing in the view window a lot.

[kiwidude]

Interesting blog post John. Will be intrigued to see how those plugin ambitions work out and what eventuates in terms of a community around that.

Personally I am stoked to see the effort you guys have made around trying to reduce the rather large bug count rather than just throwing more functionality in straight away. As nice as spell checking would be I could care less in comparison to getting rid of so many of the annoying quirks and data loss issues it has had. It is definitely trending in the right direction for stability for sure so kudos to you guys.

I'll still be doing a local build at some point to put in my features I can't live without (like opening the stylesheet by default rather than the first html page, and some missing keyboard shortcuts etc). But at least the code base is getting to a better point to do that on again. Now if only the last of the focus/find/jumping selection issues that I reported yesterday can be resolved (it seems the attempted resolving of the other issues for 0.4.2 maybe caused the new one or else it was there all along) then I'll be an even happier camper for a while

[weedfreak]

I am not interested in adding new features until the current code works correctly and consistently, search and replace is totally inconsistent for example. Once the current code works it would be nice to be able to find unused css entries in the css or css entries in the book that are undefined. Spell checking as far as I can see is totally unneeded in Sigil, as this is IMO the end process in checking and publishing, spell checking occurred many stages earlier in the process.

[JeremyR]

Yikes. If you take out WYSIWYG (or even just de-emphasize it), I really don't see the point of Sigil anymore.

That is its main appeal, it's basically a word processor for ebooks. You can load and edit (or make) a book for the most part without having to know HTML or muck about with it.

It seems to me that most of these power users already have book creation tools, and only use Sigil as a last step. Is that really the main audience for Sigil? People who think of it as an afterthought, rather than a main tool?

[theducks]

Originally Posted by JeremyR

Yikes. If you take out WYSIWYG (or even just de-emphasize it), I really don't see the point of Sigil anymore.

That is its main appeal, it's basically a word processor for ebooks. You can load and edit (or make) a book for the most part without having to know HTML or muck about with it.

It seems to me that most of these power users already have book creation tools, and only use Sigil as a last step. Is that really the main audience for Sigil? People who think of it as an afterthought, rather than a main tool?

I have to agree with this state ment
Part of the reason I spend so much time in CV is I can't do most in BV.
I will second having a BV: CSS class list with: Apply to Paragraph or apply to selected text (within the paragraph. Multi-paragraph not allowed.).

[user_none]

Originally Posted by weedfreak

I am not interested in adding new features until the current code works correctly and consistently, search and replace is totally inconsistent for example.

Part of the issue here is search and replace has to run very differently over book and code views. The other issue is, it needs some work.

Originally Posted by wedfreak

Once the current code works it would be nice to be able to find unused css entries in the css or css entries in the book that are undefined.

This would be a nice plugin.

Originally Posted by JeremyR

Yikes. If you take out WYSIWYG (or even just de-emphasize it), I really don't see the point of Sigil anymore.

That is its main appeal, it's basically a word processor for ebooks. You can load and edit (or make) a book for the most part without having to know HTML or muck about with it.

It seems to me that most of these power users already have book creation tools, and only use Sigil as a last step. Is that really the main audience for Sigil? People who think of it as an afterthought, rather than a main tool?

From what I've learned those people are either using Atlantis Word Processor, Jutoh, or running their Word doc (saved as HTML) though calibre. People use the WYSIWYG editor but the general response I've gotten is people use Sigil like Jabby does.

When I say de-emphasized I don't mean mean reduce it's feature set or remove it. I mean in terms of when you open Sigil the default won't be WYSIWYG. There are plans to improve the book view. One thing that charleski suggested that I plan on exploring is using TinyMCE instead of a QWebView in edit mode.

[charleski]

Plugins will certainly be a useful addition. As far as the language goes, I think that while Python may be unwieldy, it's the only scripting system with the flexibility to make it worthwhile.

I only use Book View for previewing, but spent quite a lot of time fixing some of its defects and missing features for this release, as it's clear there are many who use it extensively. I think a move to TinyMCE would address a lot of the remaining issues, but will involve a fair amount of work.

Removing Xerces will actually speed things up quite a lot, but it's so deeply ingrained into the core of Sigil that it'll be an extensive change. I think Xerces offers advantages for handling pure xml components like the opf and ncx files, but the xhtml might be a candidate for a more simple string store.

As far as the professional users you mentioned in your other blog post, I think the fact is that when it comes to ebook production many of them are vague, full stop. The publishing industry as a whole has a rather low level of technical acumen when it comes to ebooks and this process is often farmed out to external conversion services who work to a price, which is reflected in the low technical quality of the majority of commercial ePubs. A large chunk of the minority who do know what they're doing have been working with DocBook, which has been around for a long time, and they basically need XML schema translations, which is the main rationale for using OxygenXML to output ePubs (which is otherwise far inferior to Sigil as an ePub editor).

[FizzyWater]

I'm still using 0.3.2 and it's likely I'll never upgrade it.

Personally, I don't think it's as WYSIWYG as it could be. Probably for the reasons you want to remove it altogether.

So where I once thought I'd use it more, I mostly use it now to clean up basic stuff - like removing the old title page when I use calibre to convert an old, old version of an ebook to a newer one and I end up with the newer titlepage and still have the old one...or when there's a link to a picture that's somehow disappeared, and I want to delete the blank page.

0.3.2 works for me to do that.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by charleski

Plugins will certainly be a useful addition. As far as the language goes, I think that while Python may be unwieldy, it's the only scripting system with the flexibility to make it worthwhile.

I only use Book View for previewing, but spent quite a lot of time fixing some of its defects and missing features for this release, as it's clear there are many who use it extensively. I think a move to TinyMCE would address a lot of the remaining issues, but will involve a fair amount of work.

Removing Xerces will actually speed things up quite a lot, but it's so deeply ingrained into the core of Sigil that it'll be an extensive change. I think Xerces offers advantages for handling pure xml components like the opf and ncx files, but the xhtml might be a candidate for a more simple string store.

As far as the professional users you mentioned in your other blog post, I think the fact is that when it comes to ebook production many of them are vague, full stop. The publishing industry as a whole has a rather low level of technical acumen when it comes to ebooks and this process is often farmed out to external conversion services who work to a price, which is reflected in the low technical quality of the majority of commercial ePubs. A large chunk of the minority who do know what they're doing have been working with DocBook, which has been around for a long time, and they basically need XML schema translations, which is the main rationale for using OxygenXML to output ePubs (which is otherwise far inferior to Sigil as an ePub editor).

Charleski:

Docbook and xml schema translations are all well and good for plain, narrative fiction or textbooks; but the moment you get into more complex layout, it's problematic at best. We do a large chunk of simple paragraphic fiction, but we also do a boatload of non-fiction, self-help and political titles, the latter two replete with everything from simple fleurons to tables out the wazoo, to colums of data, graphics, diagrams, you-name-it. XML->XMSLT->ebook sounds all spiffy, but in practice, the moment you get away from plain fiction...well, at the moment, it's a pipe dream. And trust me, I wish it wasn't.

We're certainly not vague about what we do; but each of my Crews has its own way of working. One fiction crew prefers to use NTPro clips to strip and clean Word's (and OO's and WPerfect's and Works, etc.) crappy html; the other uses a Perl program written by its TL. Another prefers to use Epsilon as its editor. I don't force my Crews to do it in a singular fashion, as each has its own TL, who trains his or her own people.

One thing that we all DO have in common, though, is that the mostly-finished xhtml gets finished in Sigil. We clean the html; put it into an html/xhtml editor; regex; define the elements, add the CSS (the two things that are conformed across all teams) spell-check; add the sigil chapter breaks...and then it goes into Sigil to finish up, using it for visual checks, as well as fast way to make the ncx. We also use it for editing everything that we get back from the authors, given their endless propensity to re-write post-production.

We use it to prep (with faux tags) the V-epubs and audio-pubs that we make as well. I'd guesstimate that well over 90% of our collective time in Sigil is in CV, not BV, which has very little value to us.

So, there's naught vague about what we do; what is "vague" might be the proprietary programs, routines, macros and codes we've written to make our jobs faster and easier. But no matter how we get there, the end result is that a cleaned, spell-checked, regexed, element-defined and CSS-applied xhtml document is what gets fed to Sigil, for that final tweaking and visual check, along with ncx tweakage as needed. AND any subsequent editing. We also then use Sigil to strip out the covers and do the minor tweakage needed to create our "4 Kindlegen" epubs, which we feed to Kindlegen to make our mobis. Oh, and, of course, a quick in-process Flight Crew check, just to see if we've screwed the pooch anywhere.

HTH,
Hitch

[charleski]

Originally Posted by Hitch

We're certainly not vague about what we do; but each of my Crews has its own way of working.

My apologies, I certainly didn't want to besmirch the reputation of the conversion services that do produce quality work, and I have seen some very impressive results from those who are truly professional.

But it's unfortunate, though true, that the 'global leader' in this business is focussed purely on churning out ebooks as fast as possible at the lowest possible price, using cheap and poorly-educated labour in India and China which allows it to offer prices that are almost an order of magnitude lower than some competitors. I won't name names, but type 'ebook conversion France' into Google....