Consumers @#$%$! by DRM Scheme Once Again: HarperCollins eBook Store Close

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Grimm

I'm not playing anything with you. There is a world of difference between civil and criminal. To pretend there is not is disingenuous at best, outright ignorant at worst.

Yes, it is an important distinction but has nothing to do with the actual argument. Too often, people here have used semantic obfuscation to support lame arguments (I'm not accusing you of it).

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

This is not so "cut and dried" anymore, depending on where you live. But otherwise, I agree completely with your post. The only way any of this nonsense will stop is if people stop paying for the license to read a book.

Then the publishers will have won, because the ones that do infest their books with DRM are the ones that don't want to publish ebooks in the first place.

No, buy those DRM infested books and announce that you'll strip the DRM. That way they do see that you want books, but that whatever they do to protect it, however much money they invest in it, it's wasted, because people will remove the DRM anyway.

But never distribute.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

T
No, buy those DRM infested books and announce that you'll strip the DRM. That way they do see that you want books, but that whatever they do to protect it, however much money they invest in it, it's wasted, because people will remove the DRM anyway.

But never distribute.

I purchase an ebook in what format I can. The preference is ePUB, but geo restrictions often direct me to buy another format. Once I have purchased the ebook, it is stripped of DRM and converted to preferred format, ready to read.

Never shared. My ebook

[JSWolf]

Please stop saying that stripping DRM from eBooks is illegal in the USA. It's not legal or illegal yet. It is a gray area at present. What we do not know is if fair use trumps the DMCA or does the DMCA trump fair use? Until there is a definitive legal ruling, we just won't know the legality.

[JSWolf]

Has anyone who purchased any eBooks (in MS Reader format) from HarperCollins been able to download them using Windows 7 and MSIE 8? I already have all of them downloaded from before. But on Windows 7 with MSIE 8, I cannot download them. I do not know who's side the issue is on. It is the first time I've tried to download MS Reader eBooks using Windows 7.

[happy_terd]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Please stop saying that stripping DRM from eBooks is illegal in the USA. It's not legal or illegal yet. It is a gray area at present. What we do not know is if fair use trumps the DMCA or does the DMCA trump fair use? Until there is a definitive legal ruling, we just won't know the legality.

If it is still legal to remove DRM then can this site post the steps on how to do so.

The only reason I didnt look it up before is because I thought it was illegal in the US.


Thanks.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

If it is still legal to remove DRM then can this site post the steps on how to do so.

The only reason I didnt look it up before is because I thought it was illegal in the US.


Thanks.

In the US it is not currently illegal to remove the DRM from ebooks if that ebook does not allow "read-aloud", and there is no alternative ebook edition that does allow "read-aloud". This is because the Library of Congress has granted an exception for

(6) Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling either of the book’s read-aloud function or of screen readers that render the text into a specialized format.

However, it is still illegal to distribute de-drm software in the US. (§1201 a.2:

No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--
`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

Although unless you're doing it "for the purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain" it is 'only' a civil offence, for which the statutory damages are $200-$2500 per act of circumvention, device, product, component, offer or performance of service, as the court considers just.

But this means that while it's legal to remove the DRM from ebooks in certain circumstances, it's not legal (in the US) to tell anyone how to do it, or provide the software.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

But this means that while it's legal to remove the DRM from ebooks in certain circumstances, it's not legal (in the US) to tell anyone how to do it, or provide the software.

Laws can be funny...

Here, it's legal to download everything (except software) that is under copyright. But, it's not legal to upload. So, the uploader is guilty, the downloader isn't

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Please stop saying that stripping DRM from eBooks is illegal in the USA. It's not legal or illegal yet. It is a gray area at present.

Fact: You agreed to a abide by a license as a condition for getting an eBook. By stripping the DRM off, you have violated that license.

That is illegal. What remains to be seen is what the publishers are going to do about it.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What we do not know is if fair use trumps the DMCA or does the DMCA trump fair use? Until there is a definitive legal ruling, we just won't know the legality.

Since what you purchased as a license, not an eBook, there is no Fair Use argument here.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Fact: You agreed to a abide by a license as a condition for getting an eBook. By stripping the DRM off, you have violated that license.

That is illegal. What remains to be seen is what the publishers are going to do about it.

If that "license" is legal in the first place... I've seen licenses that had to be adjusted because they didn't conform the basic rights of citizens.

Besides, have you ever actually read any of the eula's?

Let's take Fictionwise:

Users may not modify, transmit, publish, participate in the transfer or sale of, reproduce, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, display, or in any way exploit, any of the content of these product(s), in whole or in part.

Whoops, I'm not even allowed to transmit it to my different readers after I downloaded it on my PC. And I'm not allowed to show off my reader to friends/family/collegues because I'm not allowed to display even a part.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Fact: You agreed to a abide by a license as a condition for getting an eBook. By stripping the DRM off, you have violated that license.

That is illegal. What remains to be seen is what the publishers are going to do about it.

Since what you purchased as a license, not an eBook, there is no Fair Use argument here.

This makes little sense. When I go to a bookstore site and purchase an e-book, I don't even get a pro forma agreement to check off as "accepted," spelling out any terms. All I get is the book file.

It's pretty hard to argue that I've entered into a contractual agreement when the terms of the contract are hidden from me. Plus no one asks my age at a book site--suppose the book buyer is a minor who can't legally enter into a contract?

Distributing the material is entirely different. There I would be guilty of copyright infringement.

[FF2]

It was mentioned in another thread - "violating" the license is not necessarily ILLEGAL. It is a violation of a contract which is a CIVIL matter. You might be able to be individually sued but not thrown in jail. Some might consider that a minor difference but it is not minor.

So for example, you buy ebook from Amazon. Strip the drm and read it on Sony. Somehow Amazon finds out and sues you. What are Amazon's losses? Hard to say if they don't sell a Sony copy - then they did not lose a sale. Kind of like CIVIL trespass - I walk across your lawn - some damages suits in such cases have awarded damages of ONE PENNY - the jury found the harm minimal. Now that does not mean you might not have to defend a CIVIL suit and that could cost more than that PENNY.

Georestrictions would be similar but in that event it is an agreement not even entered into by the purchasers. Those are 3rd party agreements. Not even the seller has necessarily signed such agreements - they are between publisher and author. Anyone visiting the US for example can buy a pbook limited to sale/distribution in the US. I really don't expect another country's customs officials to seize it when returning home. Is there a violation? Maybe before a sale, citizenship should be checked! But there is obviously more control over an ebook - well, until some kiosk is set up that sells ebooks directly to your reader (unless there is a lock/key avoiding such sales) or they start selling ebooks on disk.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Catlady

This makes little sense. When I go to a bookstore site and purchase an e-book,

You didn't purchase an eBook. You purchased a limited license to read the eBook on a specific device for a limited time. That licence greatly limits your rights to access of the eBook.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by FF2

It was mentioned in another thread - "violating" the license is not necessarily ILLEGAL. It is a violation of a contract which is a CIVIL matter. You might be able to be individually sued but not thrown in jail. Some might consider that a minor difference but it is not minor.

Semantics. The bottom line is that you can be punished through the legal system.

Originally Posted by FF2

So for example, you buy ebook from Amazon. Strip the drm and read it on Sony.

Amazon doesn't sell eBooks with DRM. They sell licenses.

Originally Posted by FF2

Somehow Amazon finds out and sues you. What are Amazon's losses?

Irrelevant. You broke the license. The license usually describes what the penalities are for breaking it.

[edbro]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

TallMomof2: you committed a crime stripping the DRM off because you violated the license you agreed to.

I'm going to have to be more careful. I just got out of jail for ripping the tag off my mattress. I certainly don't want to go back.