Kobo Aura 2 vs. Tolino Shine 2HD: 212ppi vs 300ppi

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by mobama

Regarding epubs on Kobo, they leave outrageously wide margins in the default reading app. And from what I have heard, there are no configuration options to regain the lost screen real estate. The only way is to install another app that takes care of these things.

You don't understand ePub. ePub's margins are based on the CSS code. If the CSS code says to have wide margins, then th ePub will have wide margins. It's nothing to do with software on a Kobo Reader. If the ePub has no DRM or you can remove the DRM, you can easily edit the margins in the editor.

[mobama]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You don't understand ePub. ePub's margins are based on the CSS code. If the CSS code says to have wide margins, then th ePub will have wide margins. It's nothing to do with software on a Kobo Reader.

Actually, I understand CSS inside out, as I am a hobby web developer. Epubs' internal CSS is easy to switch off, if the app allows it. If the app does not allow it, I call it an unreasonable app and you need a better app.

And here's the review where my claim about Kobo's outrageous margins came from https://youtu.be/P-PWy-KaF2g?t=194 As said, I don't own a Kobo, but based on this review, if I bought one and found the inbuilt app to be an obstacle like it seems to be, I'd install another reading app.

This does not mean I hate Kobo. For me it's good to know that I can make the software likeable when needed (and from reviews I have gathered it's needed). I would buy it mainly for the hardware. In the OP's comparison, the Tolino has better hardware.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by mobama

Actually, I understand CSS inside out, as I am a hobby web developer. Epubs' internal CSS is easy to switch off, if the app allows it. If the app does not allow it, I call it an unreasonable app and you need a better app.

I find totally more unreasonable those apps which don't honor the css inside the books (a dime a dozen in android app). Indeed, I've only found two which really honors it, and one of them doesn't work well in an eInk screen. So, every approach has its problems.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by mobama

Actually, I understand CSS inside out, as I am a hobby web developer. Epubs' internal CSS is easy to switch off, if the app allows it. If the app does not allow it, I call it an unreasonable app and you need a better app.

And here's the review where my claim about Kobo's outrageous margins came from https://youtu.be/P-PWy-KaF2g?t=194 As said, I don't own a Kobo, but based on this review, if I bought one and found the inbuilt app to be an obstacle like it seems to be, I'd install another reading app.

This does not mean I hate Kobo. For me it's good to know that I can make the software likeable when needed (and from reviews I have gathered it's needed). I would buy it mainly for the hardware. In the OP's comparison, the Tolino has better hardware.

Take a look at that video at 3:46. You will see the settings. If you look at the third slider labeled Margins:, you will see that they are set to give large margins. The idea (as I guess) is to simulate similar margins to a Kindle. If the slider was over to the left, the margins would be less than the Kindle.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by mobama

Actually, I understand CSS inside out, as I am a hobby web developer. Epubs' internal CSS is easy to switch off, if the app allows it. If the app does not allow it, I call it an unreasonable app and you need a better app.

And here's the review where my claim about Kobo's outrageous margins came from https://youtu.be/P-PWy-KaF2g?t=194 As said, I don't own a Kobo, but based on this review, if I bought one and found the inbuilt app to be an obstacle like it seems to be, I'd install another reading app.

This does not mean I hate Kobo. For me it's good to know that I can make the software likeable when needed (and from reviews I have gathered it's needed). I would buy it mainly for the hardware. In the OP's comparison, the Tolino has better hardware.

Yes, that video shows very wide margins on the Kobo. But, that's because the reviewer set them that way. If you watch it, they show the reading settings for the Kobo at 1:46. That shows the margins settings nearly at the middle of the slider. There are at least three narrower margin settings than the one chosen. And the smallest is effectively no margins at all. At about 4:33, they show that the Kindle is on the narrowest margin setting.

There are plenty of screenshots of Kobo devices posted in the Kobo forum that show the narrower margins that the device is capable of. Of course, finding them will be a pain. This thread shows a kepub (probably sideloaded) with much narrower margins than in that review. Kepubs do have larger minimum margins than for epubs, but I think they have it on the second setting.

I didn't watch all the review, just skipped through it. The reviewer didn't know how to use the Kobo. There were several things he pointed out on the Kindle but didn't point out the similar function on the Kobo device. And, with the margins, it felt like he deliberately setup the Kobo to look bad compared to the Kindle. Of course, it might just be that's the way that person likes the margins. If they are used to the margins on a Kindle, they might have chosen similar settings on the Kobo.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by mobama

I don't own either a Kobo or a Tolino, so I can speak out on them only with reference to what I have seen others say, so take it FWIW.

Regarding epubs on Kobo, they leave outrageously wide margins in the default reading app. And from what I have heard, there are no configuration options to regain the lost screen real estate. The only way is to install another app that takes care of these things.

The top margins on an epub are set by the CSS as are the minimum left and right margins. The bottom margin includes a footer unless you enable full screen reading mode however the footer size can be reduced by a patch. In an kepub, the top header is added but that can either be reduced by a patch or removed by switching to full screen mode.

There is a slider to set the right and left margins greater than the minimum though I seldom move it off zero which is the same for the patched or unpatched Kobo firmware.

As for the margins in the video you linked, you did notice the margin slider was set to the middle position for the Aura H2O2? Care to guess what happens when you move the slider to the left?

Originally Posted by mobama

When I personally buy an electronic screen gadget, I don't expect its onboard software to fulfil all my needs. Therefore I want the gadget to be tinkerable, I want my favourite apps to be installable on it, so that I can make it useful. The closer it is to a regular computer in terms of the range of available optional software the better.

Whereas when I purchase an ereader, I expect it to work as an ereader. Comparing my Tolino Epos to my Kobo collection, I find the Kobo firmware does a better job of displaying books especially for epub3 books where my Tolino Epos pops up a "the file format of the title is not entirely supported, etc. Do you want to open this title now?". For most epub3 which don't make much use of epub3 features, continuing is okay while those that make use of epub3 features or fixed layout require reading on my Kobo device.

Originally Posted by mobama

From the post I linked, Tolino seems to be good on that regard. And I'd rather not compromise on the screen quality.

I would rather have the Kobo with it's more advanced font control, epub support and the ability to have series information visible in the library. Even little things such as when I specify a font for the Kobo, it will still use fonts specified in the CSS (headings, signatures, etc.) whereas the Tolino firmware uses that font for everything.

BTW, I've attached screenshots from a KA1 and a Tolino Epos with the font size set as close as I can which is iffy since the Tolino font sizing is a lot coarser. This is without the various patches for Kobo's firmware I normally use.

As for the ereaders I've owned? Kobo, Kobo Wifi, Kobo Touch, Kobo Glo, Kobo Aura, Kobo Mini, Kobo Aura HD, Kobo H2O, Kobo Aura One, Sony PRS 350, Kindle keyboard (those two were picked up used) and Tolino Epos.

As for your suggestion that disabling CSS is a good feature? Only if the person who created the epub was not doing their job. Otherwise, I like seeing drop caps, right, left, centred, justified text, bold, italic, underlined, etc. and all the other effects that add to the reading experience.

[mobama]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Take a look at that video at 3:46. You will see the settings. If you look at the third slider labeled Margins:, you will see that they are set to give large margins. The idea (as I guess) is to simulate similar margins to a Kindle. If the slider was over to the left, the margins would be less than the Kindle.

Compare this to what you said earlier: "ePub's margins are based on the CSS code. If the CSS code says to have wide margins, then th ePub will have wide margins. It's nothing to do with software on a Kobo Reader."

From my point of view, this quote by itself states a decisive reason to avoid Kobo's inbuilt reader. I most definitely want the ability to switch off the inbuilt CSS and set my own styles, select between indented versus block paragraphs etc. I want this because a very common file format in my ebook collection is HTML - I save a lengthy talky webpage, load it onto the ereader and then read it. Often enough, some tinkering is needed for comfortable reading. The tinkering, to keep it simple, involves stripping all CSS written into the page and cleaning the HTML markup so that headings and titles are defined as headings and titles, paragraphs and blockquotes as paragraphs and blockquotes, etc, so that when I apply my own styles in the reading app in the ereader, everything makes visually perfect sense as it should. If the reading app cannot apply my preferred CSS, it's not a reading app worth the name. Same with epubs - some are beautifully formatted with the internal CSS and markup, let these be as they are, but others are atrocious and it's an instant improvement to switch their internal styles off.

As to the ability to set margins in Kobo reading app, yes, the settings are there, which is good. But when I first mentioned "outrageously wide margins" I included the footer/statusbar in the concept and I mentioned it too. Those are outrageously wide indeed and configurable/removable only by patching, mentioned in passing by the reviewer, which is near-equivalent to installing another app.

By the way, I'm sure you know the reviewer and you cannot blame him for ignorance or bias. You can only blame him for his preferences, but it really is not blameworthy to have preferences.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by mobama

Compare this to what you said earlier: "ePub's margins are based on the CSS code. If the CSS code says to have wide margins, then th ePub will have wide margins. It's nothing to do with software on a Kobo Reader."

The truth is that it is both. The Kobo software respects the formatting in the book. And that means the stylesheet. That means that if the creator put a margin in the book, or on certain elements, they will be used. But, the software can also add extra margins. Or maybe it is better to say it resizes the viewing window.

From my point of view, this quote by itself states a decisive reason to avoid Kobo's inbuilt reader. I most definitely want the ability to switch off the inbuilt CSS and set my own styles, select between indented versus block paragraphs etc. I want this because a very common file format in my ebook collection is HTML - I save a lengthy talky webpage, load it onto the ereader and then read it. Often enough, some tinkering is needed for comfortable reading. The tinkering, to keep it simple, involves stripping all CSS written into the page and cleaning the HTML markup so that headings and titles are defined as headings and titles, paragraphs and blockquotes as paragraphs and blockquotes, etc, so that when I apply my own styles in the reading app in the ereader, everything makes visually perfect sense as it should. If the reading app cannot apply my preferred CSS, it's not a reading app worth the name.

And the Kobo software would be perfectly happy displaying that HTML page. It does support HTML as a format.

Same with epubs - some are beautifully formatted with the internal CSS and markup, let these be as they are, but others are atrocious and it's an instant improvement to switch their internal styles off.

And as crappy as some epubs are, just turning of the internal CSS could be just as bad. A lot of them use spans with a class for italics or bold, which means losing the emphasis these supply. And there are plenty that use a div instead of p. I've no idea what disabling the internal CSS would do for that. I'm not convinced that the option is better.

As to the ability to set margins in Kobo reading app, yes, the settings are there, which is good. But when I first mentioned "outrageously wide margins" I included the footer/statusbar in the concept and I mentioned it too. Those are outrageously wide indeed and configurable/removable only by patching, mentioned in passing by the reviewer, which is near-equivalent to installing another app.

And what are you basing he claim on the top margin on? What is to much? Looking at my current epub on my Aura H2O, the space at the top is about the same as the space between lines for my current font size. That is maybe 3mm. Again, if you are judging it on that review, you aren't seeing the whole story.

Yes, the bottom margin is bigger due to the space left for the page number. Use the full screen reader, and that disappears.

By the way, I'm sure you know the reviewer and you cannot blame him for ignorance or bias. You can only blame him for his preferences, but it really is not blameworthy to have preferences.

I can blame him if he doesn't setup the device for reviewing to show it in its best light. Or show all the features of the device. Your reaction to that review demonstrates this. I can also blame him for not doing the work to make sure that when he says the Kindle is better because it has a particular function, that he ignores that same function on the device he is comparing it to.

And I didn't pay attention to who did the review. Now that I see who it is, he claims to be an expert on ereaders, has reviewed these devices many times. He should know all the features of them.

[mobama]

Originally Posted by davidfor

And what are you basing he claim on the top margin on? What is to much?

As I said earlier: When one app/reader shows you the same amount of text on a 6.8" screen as another app/reader on a 6" screen with the same font faces and sizes, this is a difference that would make me prefer the latter app/reader to the former. Hardware-wise I would still pick the reader with 6.8" screen, particularly if the resolution does not suffer, but I would want to install another reading app there.

Originally Posted by davidfor

I can blame him if he doesn't setup the device for reviewing to show it in its best light.

We evidently judge reviews by different standards. I'd blame him if he specifically set the device up to show it in worse light, but not for failing to set it up to show it in best light.

Originally Posted by davidfor

And I didn't pay attention to who did the review. Now that I see who it is, he claims to be an expert on ereaders, has reviewed these devices many times. He should know all the features of them.

Nobody reviews "all the features". Every reviewer reviews the features that seem important enough to test, and when they review many devices and they do it often, a pattern of preferences emerges. I have looked through many series by the same reviewer and of others to compare. Many reviewers don't even set two devices side by side, even though they may talk (approvingly or disapprovingly) about other devices while having a single one to show. On youtube, this particular reviewer is as competent and objective as it gets.

If you don't like his review, find a better one. Based on my own research, I am confident that you cannot find anything better. You will have to make a better one yourself.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by mobama

Compare this to what you said earlier: "ePub's margins are based on the CSS code. If the CSS code says to have wide margins, then th ePub will have wide margins. It's nothing to do with software on a Kobo Reader."

From my point of view, this quote by itself states a decisive reason to avoid Kobo's inbuilt reader. I most definitely want the ability to switch off the inbuilt CSS and set my own styles, select between indented versus block paragraphs etc. I want this because a very common file format in my ebook collection is HTML - I save a lengthy talky webpage, load it onto the ereader and then read it. Often enough, some tinkering is needed for comfortable reading. The tinkering, to keep it simple, involves stripping all CSS written into the page and cleaning the HTML markup so that headings and titles are defined as headings and titles, paragraphs and blockquotes as paragraphs and blockquotes, etc, so that when I apply my own styles in the reading app in the ereader, everything makes visually perfect sense as it should. If the reading app cannot apply my preferred CSS, it's not a reading app worth the name. Same with epubs - some are beautifully formatted with the internal CSS and markup, let these be as they are, but others are atrocious and it's an instant improvement to switch their internal styles off.

If you are set to remove DRM, you can easily use the Calibre editor to remove the extra CSS classes and then find the ones you need to change to set the left/right margin to 0. Then you can use the margin slider to set the margin as you want. Very easy.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by mobama

We evidently judge reviews by different standards. I'd blame him if he specifically set the device up to show it in worse light, but not for failing to set it up to show it in best light.

The reviewer did show the Kobo in a worse light then it could be shown. He's chosen a font that's not the best available. He chose a wider line height and wider margins. All this makes the eBook displayed look pretty poor. That is the fault of the reviewer. The idea is not to try to emulate a Kindle, but to show the Kobo in the best light. I've seen other reviewers do a similar then when reviewing a Kobo vs a Kindle. They don't know how to review given that's how they do it.

There are nicer looking built-in fonts. You can get less of a line-height and less of a margin. You don't need to disable the CSS. The thing is, you have to notice the option settings and see that the reviewer botched the review by using poor settings. A Kobo is not a Kindle and you should not try to set the Kobo to emulate the Kindle. You should set the Kobo in it's best light to show that you can get a better looking display then the Kindle.

And given when the review was made, there is no reason the font on the Kobo should look so light.Looking at the Kobo setting, where you see Font Face: there is a button labeled Advanced. Tapping that takes you to where you can increase the weight of the fonts and make them look better.

The review you cited is worthless because the reviewer does not know how to do a proper review of the Kobo.

[mobama]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The idea is not to try to emulate a Kindle, but to show the Kobo in the best light.

When a review compares two devices side by side, the idea is to compare. It's a comparison. If the fact of a wide footer/statusbar on the Kobo as compared to the Kindle caught the reviewer's attention and he deems it noteworthy, then there's no reason to blame him for mentioning the fact. The more facts the better.

In my view, it's a fair plan: Set the fonts visually to the same size and see how much more text the bigger screen can fit - dang! it cannot! This is noteworthy. And in this case the reviewer makes no big deal of it, he passes over it quickly, says there are patches to fix this and moves on. There's no bias there.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You don't need to disable the CSS.

Of course, I completely agree. Until you need to.

If you like things styled for you, good for you. My strong preference happens to be the opposite. I am old enough to already have eyesight issues, so by now I forcefully apply my own styles everywhere in ebooks and all over the web (a text-mode webbrowser in a terminal emulator is best for that), until I run into indigestible markup that displays the way the designer meant it only in Chrome or the like. Or until I encounter an ebook whose inbuilt styles are truly gorgeous - this happens also, and I am actually looking forward to it, so I habitually test ebooks both ways before starting reading.

But as far as possible, all fonts and colors and styles everywhere must be possible to be set my way. It's a basic user-friendliness issue that happens to be in good line with accessibility. There is no argument against this.

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by mobama

But as far as possible, all fonts and colors and styles everywhere must be possible to be set my way. It's a basic user-friendliness issue that happens to be in good line with accessibility. There is no argument against this.

You are right. But any reading software that runs roughshod over an e-book's css should carry a very big warning sticker that says what it does.

[mobama]

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

You are right. But any reading software that runs roughshod over an e-book's css should carry a very big warning sticker that says what it does.

I agree. And I would be happy to see the same warning sticker on badly designed/formatted ebooks/webpages.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by mobama

When a review compares two devices side by side, the idea is to compare. It's a comparison. If the fact of a wide footer/statusbar on the Kobo as compared to the Kindle caught the reviewer's attention and he deems it noteworthy, then there's no reason to blame him for mentioning the fact. The more facts the better.

I agree that the idea is to compare. But the idea is to compare each device in the best way possible. The Kobo was set to be very poor. Wide margins, whide line height, poor font, no weight added to make the font stand out more. The reviewer did not do his job properly. He totally botched it. You do not take the better device and dumb it down to be like the other device. Your complaints are because the reviewer totally botched the review. So your complaints are invalid since the review is invalid.

In my view, it's a fair plan: Set the fonts visually to the same size and see how much more text the bigger screen can fit - dang! it cannot! This is noteworthy. And in this case the reviewer makes no big deal of it, he passes over it quickly, says there are patches to fix this and moves on. There's no bias there.

Again you don't get it. Sure, set the fonts to the same size, but don't set the Kobo so you have less text on screen by increasing the margins and the line height. That's just not the correct way to do it. The reviewer didn't do his job properly. He showed the Kobo in a very poor way when it could have been shown in a much better way.

Of course, I completely agree. Until you need to.

You don't need to ever. You can go into the CSS and fix a few things and be good to go instead of not being good to go by removing the CSS.

If you like things styled for you, good for you. My strong preference happens to be the opposite. I am old enough to already have eyesight issues, so by now I forcefully apply my own styles everywhere in ebooks and all over the web (a text-mode webbrowser in a terminal emulator is best for that), until I encounter indigestible markup that displays the way the designer meant it only in Chrome or the like. Or until I encounter an ebook whose inbuilt styles are truly gorgeous - this happens also, and I am actually looking forward to it, so I tend to test ebooks both ways before starting reading.

But as far as possible, all fonts and colors and styles everywhere must be possible to be set my way. It's a basic user-friendliness issue that happens to be in good line with accessibility. There is no argument against this.

Colors don't count. This is a greyscale screen.

As for styled, everything has a style even if you don't have a CSS. The defaults are a style. The idea is to find the style you like best. With a Kobo, you can apply your style. With a Kindle, you have a less control over the style. So if you want less left/right margins, a Kindle is not for you. If you want a smaller line height, a Kindle is not for you. You can change these things with a Kobo.

So please don't accept that review as the truth as the Kobo can display that eBook much better than the reviewer has set to display.