"The book industry is gonna get Napstered..."

[doreenjoy]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Who mentioned charity? You are being paid not for the digital product which has zero worth in the digital economy, but for your time and effort/your perceived value to the reader. At least that would be the case on any donation based model used. Actually I would have thought authors would be elated to know that fans were subsidizing them out of genuine love and a desire to nurture their talent, rather than just buying a product (a product that can be ignored and tossed aside, because in the end that's all it is, a product made of atoms).

The donation model didn't work for software developers, and I don't see it working for any kind of artist.

Perhaps I'm just an aging cynic, but people won't pay for what they can get for free.

The water analogy isn't quite apt IMO. The water that comes out of spigots and drinking fountains has been castigated as tainted. people are buying "purity" in those plastic bottles, not water.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I'm trying to figure out how to get a copy of the ebook. Can't visit Scribd from work (they seem to think it's a content storage & download site, fancy that), and a couple of the reviews online seem to say it can't be downloaded from Scribd. I have a Sony, but the Library software isn't working for me; I can't get it to connect properly. (I suspect it has something to do with dialup. Too slow; the pages crash before they finish.)

I don't think the product itself will be valueless, but money will be based on presentation, not contents. We may see a return to the pay-per-chapter cliffhanger; when the author gets enough money, the next chapter is released. Or we may see subscriptions to publishers or authors--$15/month or $120/year gets you two ebooks per month, with heavy social DRM (your name and address in the headers, maybe your CC#... editable, but that'd take some work).

One of the worries about digital content dropping in price, is we may see a return to exclusive, tiny print runs, for authors who would rather get $50 from each of 200 readers, than the maybe-chance for $2 from each of 5000 readers.

There's been some trouble with Scribd (geographic limitations), and Spotify is Europe only. I don't use Sony's craptacular software, so I can't access the store that end and tell you if that's also geographically restricted. It'll probably be on a friendly neighborhood torrent site soon enough

On your other points, yes and more besides. We're probably going to see subscription based models, advertising, pay-per-chapter, pay to completion, and boutique print-runs (possibly invidualised by the author) and many other ways to monetize fiction, just as we're seeing with music. Not everyone sells their tracks through itunes (and takes a tiny percentage of profits), some do it through Jamendo and Magnatune, some sell CD's or merchandise or tickets to concerts, or any other number of things.

The digital age is disruptive. Many people will lose out, and many will gain. But there's not a cat's chance in hell that these big companies can stick with the old product=fixed price model for very long. Just won't happen.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

The donation model didn't work for software developers, and I don't see it working for any kind of artist.

It works all the time for software developers - ask Kovid, the author of the excellent Calibre software many of us use. Ask Alex about the software this site runs on (more than likely Apache with MysQL or some other open-source or no charge database back-end. If it's a windows IIS server I'd be very surprised.).

Perhaps I'm just an aging cynic, but people won't pay for what they can get for free.

Listen, don't get me wrong, I understand how painful it's going to be for a lot of working authors who make their living now from their writing and might find that difficult in the near future. I'd hope those authors would try to experiment, to find a plan that takes them forward and lets them maintain their careers in the future. I no more want to see authors forced out of writing than I would want to see anybody else losing their jobs. Saying that, authors must be open to new technologies, a lot more open than what we've seen in recent years. They must embrace the culture that is growing, find and forge new paths for themselves and others or they run a risk of obsoleting themselves.

[K-Thom]

It may very well be that in the future less people actually will make a living by being creative.

And this is definitely not about talent. It's about writing, singing, playing, drawing the right stuff at the right time for the right audience. If your work will find an audience large enough, enough of the comsumers will acutally buy "something" which is related to your work.
This may either be a book or a CD or a concert ticket or a merchandise like a mug or T-shirt. Or anything else.

Just expect this to be a tough competition. One choice is to find a job as close as possible to what you would like to do. And hope you earn enough money with it. In the spare time create that what you actually want to create.

Right now I'm earning my money by writing short adventure stories for browser game rpgs.
My name will never be linked to that work, my name won't appear on any front cover of a paperback. But I'm still writing, and I try to use my free time as effectively as possible for my private projects. If one of them becomes a success some day, fine. If not I still do what I basically want to do.

Back to the basic consideration. If digital products will cause a decline in the "market value" of creativity, first the creative minds will leave, then the digital products will vanish. And then the creative minds will return. Hardly anybody actually needs digital products (besides handicapped people maybe). You may read a book, listen to a CD, buy a DVD, go to a concert. You don't really need their digital/downloadable counterparts.

I've been into eBooks since 1999, and I noticed two or three years ago that I regained my interests in printed books, also in old vinyl records or actually going to a concert. For me it seems, as convenient as digital products are, they somehow leave a gap; they are not as satisfactory as I would like them to be.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I have to say, I think mis-pricing could harm the book industry as a whole, and in some cases delaying the e-book version will very likely turn some people to piracy. But I don't think e-books will get pirated to death. Let's face it, it takes all of 2 brainless minutes to make a high-fidelity copy of an entire CD; it takes hours to scan, format and edit a paper book into a digital format. A book will have to be fairly popular for someone to put that effort into it.

Ok, let's look at this scenario:

Book A arrives in hardcover. You don't want to buy pbooks anymore, and the publisher refuses to make an ebook. So, you go to the darknet and download a (not so good) copy of that book. You put some time in it to fix it up a bit, this takes (let's say) 3 weeks.

After 6 months, the publisher decides that the hardcover isn't making enough money anymore so, he publishes the ebook together with the paperback version. Would you now buy that ebook?

I've scanned books myself and I usually fix mistakes while reading it. I doubt I'd buy the ebook of those books.

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i agree. it might be more about the service than the content but people are definitely willing to pay for convenience, otherwise all those frozen dinner companies would be out of a job too.

Absolutely! If those books I've scanned myself were available in ebook format when I wanted them, I'd not have scanned them and just bought them (again, as I already have the pbook versions).

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

The water analogy isn't quite apt IMO. The water that comes out of spigots and drinking fountains has been castigated as tainted. people are buying "purity" in those plastic bottles, not water.

Hmm, I think that would depend on the country you're living in. Over here, you can drink the water perfectly (actually, some places sell the water that also comes from the tap in bottles...) and still people buy bottled water...

(I generally buy one bottle and keep filling it with tap water until I want to replace the bottle again...)

[John Bailey]

Originally Posted by doreenjoy

The donation model didn't work for software developers, and I don't see it working for any kind of artist.

Perhaps I'm just an aging cynic, but people won't pay for what they can get for free.

Don't be so sure. I'm living proof the people who pay for free exist. I regularly make donations to the Linux projects I use and like, I contribute to the donation system on some podcasts I regularly use. My most recent contribution was to Kovid's Calibre app. Not much, but it doesn't have to be a one off thing either.

I've also bought music that was available free from the artist's site. Crazy I know.. But we do exist.

The water analogy isn't quite apt IMO. The water that comes out of spigots and drinking fountains has been castigated as tainted. people are buying "purity" in those plastic bottles, not water.

Not as far from the truth as you might think..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3809539.stm

What people are buying is water in a plastic bottle.

What people are being sold is a different matter.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

(I generally buy one bottle and keep filling it with tap water until I want to replace the bottle again...)

Totally off topic but that is not a very healthy thing to do. I can't remember the exact details but it has something to do with the type of plastic used in these store bought "one use" bottles breaking down over time, specially if exposed to sunlight.(bringing the bottle while taking a walk for example)

It's much better to buy a sports bottle to drink from and refill as it uses a plastic that is far less likely to break down over time.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Totally off topic but that is not a very healthy thing to do. I can't remember the exact details but it has something to do with the type of plastic used in these store bought "one use" bottles breaking down over time, specially if exposed to sunlight.(bringing the bottle while taking a walk for example)

It's much better to buy a sports bottle to drink from and refill as it uses a plastic that is far less likely to break down over time.

Cheers,
PKFFW

That's why I regularly replace the bottle... And my bottle isn't really exposed to sunlight while standing on my desk. When I go walking I take my metal bottle... (I don't like those sports bottles, they give the water a plasticy taste...)


Time to go ontopic again!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Who mentioned charity? You are being paid not for the digital product which has zero worth in the digital economy, but for your time and effort/your perceived value to the reader. At least that would be the case on any donation based model used. Actually I would have thought authors would be elated to know that fans were subsidizing them out of genuine love and a desire to nurture their talent, rather than just buying a product (a product that can be ignored and tossed aside, because in the end that's all it is, a product made of atoms).

The idea that an author should have to rely on people who are "fanatics" (and that's what the word "fan" is an abbreviation of, don't forget) strikes me as a little odd. If I sell a book, it is a product like any other. I (or my publisher) sets a price for it; the customers decides whether or not to buy it. When I go to my local supermarket and do my shopping, I don't buy specific products because I am "fanatical" about them, but merely because I like them as products. Why try to pretend that "creative" works are any different?

[Sweetpea]

I got this from ereaders.nl...

Dutch publishers will never understand the concept of electronic products, I'm afraid...

Part of the discussion is the question how publishers should handle books that are sold out... pbooks can be sold out, in which case the rights to the book will fall back to the author automatically. But ebooks can't be sold out, so the rights would never fall back to the author. So, one of the publisher organizations suggested to define a minimum amount of yearly downloads as "sold out"...

--------

Oh, that electronic version of that book is sold out!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

But ebooks can't be sold out, so the rights would never fall back to the author. So, one of the publisher organizations suggested to define a minimum amount of yearly downloads as "sold out"...

--------

Oh, that electronic version of that book is sold out!

I'm afraid I don't see anything wrong with that. Having a clause in your contract with a publisher saying "if sales fall below a certain level, the distribution rights will revert to the author" seems like a good idea. It may indicate that the publisher is doing a poor job.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm afraid I don't see anything wrong with that. Having a clause in your contract with a publisher saying "if sales fall below a certain level, the distribution rights will revert to the author" seems like a good idea. It may indicate that the publisher is doing a poor job.

I can understand that... But let's say you "press" 100.000 books. Once those are all sold, the 100.001 customer can't download it anymore because the publisher doesn't own the rights anymore (and thus can't sell it anymore). What will that person do? Wait for the rights to be figured out again? And a new batch will be able for download? As I think that is what will happen (knowing what I know about publishers here...)

I live in a country with one of the highest penetration of broadband internet, but it seems a lot of people still don't know what internet is...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I can understand that... But let's say you "press" 100.000 books. Once those are all sold, the 100.001 customer can't download it anymore because the publisher doesn't own the rights anymore (and thus can't sell it anymore). What will that person do? Wait for the rights to be figured out again? And a new batch will be able for download? As I think that is what will happen (knowing what I know about publishers here...)

That is actually quite a common thing. When a book becomes "unavailable" for purchase from an eBook store it is very often because the publisher no longer has the right to sell it.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That is actually quite a common thing. When a book becomes "unavailable" for purchase from an eBook store it is very often because the publisher no longer has the right to sell it.

I've never come across that...


Oh, and the solution is simple... (as it always is when you're not really involved!) The author just keeps his rights and do away with publishers (for ebooks that is) completely. A percentage of every ebook that gets sold will go to the author not by way of the publisher, but by way of the ebookstore...

[sony_fox]

The author just keeps his rights and do away with publishers (for ebooks that is) completely

Precisely. This is actually the best deal for the authors - CJ Cherryh is in the process of setting up her own Ebookshop (called Closed Circle) so that she can sell her ebooks to her readers. It's taken a couple of months work to get the shop up and running, and I can see some authors contracting this out. But I would love to see a world where if you want a book you go to the author's webpage, and download a copy - at a price that suits the author, a reflection of the work they've put in, secure in the knowledge that they are getting all the profit, not the tiny fraction the publishers pass on.