Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-22-2022, 12:57 PM   #1
Uncle Robin
Diligent dilettante
Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Uncle Robin's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,884
Karma: 35618844
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: in my mind
Device: Kobo Sage; Kobo Libra H2O
Amazon changes ebook refund policy

Quote:
In an email to the SoA and the Authors’ Guild on 21 September David Naggar – Amazon’s Vice President of Books & Kindle Content – said, ‘we do hear all you have said over the course of our conversations on this topic and are planning to make meaningful changes … Most notably, we will de-activate self-service returns for any book read past 10%, adding substantial friction to the process.’
https://societyofauthors.org/News/Ne...ponse-to-union
Uncle Robin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 01:18 PM   #2
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 25,698
Karma: 178231278
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
It's pointless. The "solution" is not going to stop anyone who believes they're entitled to return an ebook for a refund after reading the whole thing. Because nothing WILL stop those people (except for not allowing returns on ebooks at all).
DiapDealer is online now   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 09-22-2022, 01:42 PM   #3
Uncle Robin
Diligent dilettante
Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Uncle Robin's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,884
Karma: 35618844
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: in my mind
Device: Kobo Sage; Kobo Libra H2O
Clearly Amazon does not share your conviction that this is pointless. There was no upside to Amazon for keeping the status quo, this gesture will gain them goodwill (already has judging from reactions I've seen) from content suppliers.
Uncle Robin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 01:45 PM   #4
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 18,080
Karma: 205229304
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5
The Society of Authors is wrong about the return window; it’s seven days, not fourteen days.

What does work, I’d guess, is when Amazon closes an account for excessive returns. The rest? Stealers gonna steal.
issybird is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 02:45 PM   #5
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 25,698
Karma: 178231278
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Robin View Post
Clearly Amazon does not share your conviction that this is pointless. There was no upside to Amazon for keeping the status quo, this gesture will gain them goodwill (already has judging from reactions I've seen) from content suppliers.
Sure. They don't think it's pointless. The point for them is quite different is all.

My point was that its pointless in so far as it won't stop anyone who is determined to read for free. Amazon knows this as well. They're doing it to appease people who are easily appeased by pointless actions. If that's what you're calling "goodwill", then fine.

My point that it won't stop any of the people from doing what it's intended to stop them from doing still stands. Because it won't. And when the Society of Authors figures that out, they'll be back with more pointless demands and Amazon might even happily grant some of them. Lather, rinse, repeat.

No one is accidentally reading for free by returning ebooks. And the ones who are doing it purposely won't be daunted by pointless added "friction." New TikTok videos explaining how to easily get around the new "considerable friction" will be posted within hours.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 09-22-2022 at 02:53 PM.
DiapDealer is online now   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 09-22-2022, 08:42 PM   #6
Uncle Robin
Diligent dilettante
Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Uncle Robin's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,884
Karma: 35618844
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: in my mind
Device: Kobo Sage; Kobo Libra H2O
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Sure. They don't think it's pointless. The point for them is quite different is all.


My initial post made no comment at all about the policy, simply shared the link. I didn't share the link because I thought the new policy would end piracy, but because I found it an interesting example of a megacorp acting in its own best interests by placating an important group of suppliers.
Uncle Robin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 09:35 PM   #7
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 25,698
Karma: 178231278
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
And in this case, the group of important suppliers have been much too easily placated by a shiny pointless nothing burger that won't do what they think it will. I find that interesting as well.
DiapDealer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 10:14 PM   #8
haertig
Wizard
haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 1,338
Karma: 17700000
Join Date: Sep 2017
Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26
Why would someone who wants to steal a book go to the trouble of buying it, then returning it, while risking cancellation of their Amazon account - when they could just go to a pirate website and steal it in one fell swoop?
haertig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 10:31 PM   #9
Uncle Robin
Diligent dilettante
Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Uncle Robin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Uncle Robin's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,884
Karma: 35618844
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: in my mind
Device: Kobo Sage; Kobo Libra H2O
Quote:
Originally Posted by haertig View Post
Why would someone who wants to steal a book go to the trouble of buying it, then returning it, while risking cancellation of their Amazon account - when they could just go to a pirate website and steal it in one fell swoop?
The article mentioned publicity on Tiktok - it's feasible that some Tiktok users might not know of book piracy sites and simply use the methods shown on that platform
Uncle Robin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 10:57 PM   #10
MGlitch
Wizard
MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MGlitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,753
Karma: 21271758
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma, Kobo Sage, Kobo Libra 2
It might be a tiny amount of friction, but considering their former lubed up in a vacuum policy of allowing returns no matter how much was read as long as it was within a window of time it's something.

It remains to be seen if Amazon will actually give this any teeth, I doubt they will though it's more likely the person reviewing will rubber stamp everything as approved for refund.

As to this reducing piracy, no it wont. Most people pirating aren't going to buy the book and return it, they'll just download it. Why? Because it's frictionless to do. But maybe, just maybe, it'll reduce people returning books they read entirely.
MGlitch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2022, 11:34 PM   #11
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 25,698
Karma: 178231278
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
How will they know how far a book's been read if WiFi is left off after acquiring the book on a device and it's returned via a PC?

I have no doubt they would eventually get caught--but they already get caught by being habitual returners anyway. *shrug*
DiapDealer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2022, 01:36 AM   #12
haertig
Wizard
haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 1,338
Karma: 17700000
Join Date: Sep 2017
Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26
Amazon would probably do best by implementing a "return book" button that pops up a disclaimer: "Warning: Amazon allows legitimate returns of eBooks. But returning too many books, or returning a book after you have read it, will result in your Amazon account being canceled, without recourse. Contact an Amazon representative if you would like to review your return history." Then pop up a new required-to-continue button that says "I understand". And if someone clicks past that disclaimer, they are presented with a mandatory text box labeled "Please tell us specifically why you are returning this book." No drop-down with a selection of reasons - the returner would have to manually type in their reason.

The disclaimer should not define what "legitimate", or "too many", or "after you have read it" mean. And it shouldn't tell people specifically how to "contact an Amazon representative".

Now, Amazon's policy behind the scenes could actually be to allow any return at any time, but after reading the disclaimer most people probably wouldn't continue with the return unless it was really, really justified. And they'd always have the question in the back of their mind, "Will my next return be the straw that breaks the camel's back?"
haertig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2022, 02:13 AM   #13
stumped
Wizard
stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.stumped ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,131
Karma: 7743508
Join Date: May 2016
Device: kobo forma, Kobo Libra, Huawei media Tab, fire HD10, PW3 HDX8.9,
Quote:
Originally Posted by haertig View Post
Why would someone who wants to steal a book go to the trouble of buying it, then returning it, while risking cancellation of their Amazon account - when they could just go to a pirate website and steal it in one fell swoop?
download sites only have a fraction of amazon's e-book catalogue..
recent best seller fiction - probably yes,
special interest - probably not

and one way the sites can offer new releases uploads within one day of release must be by abusing the return process- either that or the pirates are actually buying copies , then sharing; or have inside help?
stumped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2022, 02:20 AM   #14
haertig
Wizard
haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.haertig ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 1,338
Karma: 17700000
Join Date: Sep 2017
Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumped View Post
...and one way the sites can offer new releases uploads within one day of release must be by abusing the return process...
I always envisioned 1000 Chinese or Russian hackers sitting in a room pooling their money, probably gained from spreading ransomware, to buy one copy of an eBook and then pirating it. But who knows how they actually do it.
haertig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2022, 04:08 AM   #15
Quoth
the rook, bossing Never.
Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Quoth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Quoth's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,518
Karma: 47800321
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ireland
Device: Both Kinds: epub based makes and Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumped View Post
download sites only have a fraction of amazon's e-book catalogue..
recent best seller fiction - probably yes,
special interest - probably not

and one way the sites can offer new releases uploads within one day of release must be by abusing the return process- either that or the pirates are actually buying copies , then sharing; or have inside help?
A lot of famous author books are pirated from ARC.

I don't see that this changes much. Amazon already has an almost secretive "we'll disable your account if you return too much", but they don't spell out how it works and appealing is difficult (say you've been unlucky with local carrier breaking/stealing stuff or buying garbage).

Some sellers (physical local and online) don't take returns at all on "digital content", though not sure either of those is legal in EU (various implementations of Distance Selling Cooling Off Period and Fit for purpose/as advertised SOGA by each National Government).

Like Diap Dealer, I'm sceptical that this is any more than PR.
Quoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EBook price fixing: Did you receive a refund? / Update: up to $3.06 per book doctorow News 49 02-09-2014 06:03 PM
Can't Find My Amazon Kindle Files on My PC. But Refund given. Dasha General Discussions 23 01-24-2014 11:52 AM
Amazon's E-Book Return Policy G J Lau Writers' Corner 41 11-08-2011 05:16 AM
What Amazon's Return Policy for it? Font Amazon Kindle 6 09-26-2010 04:34 PM
Refund or Discount on poorly formated ebook oldbwl General Discussions 12 09-24-2010 10:45 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:01 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.