FTC sues amazon over dark patterns

[BionicGecko]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

You seem to be dodging my question. If the behavior in question (used to "trick" people into purchasing Prime) is not offensive and/or tricksy enough to cause enough annoyance to leave (because non-Prime customers are tired of constantly having to jump through terrible hoops to avoid it). Then how terrible, and litigious can the behavior actually be?

Evidently it's terrible and litigious enough to never have been implemented in this way in Europe, where customer protection laws are stronger than in the US.

While Amazon does market Prime on their EU websites, the sales pitch is not directly integrated in the purchase process (with big buttons for buying with Prime and small links for the "non-Prime" option). This would not fly at all under EU laws, as it is basically the same thing as "slamming" in in-person sales.

The "invisible hand of the market" is not the answer to everything.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by BionicGecko

The "invisible hand of the market" is not the answer to everything.

Neither is going straight to litigation.

I would actually welcome laws that held ALL online businesses in the US to the same ethical standards/practices. Rather than the system of targeting the baddie du jour with litigation that we currently have. Why should smaller companies employing the same tactics (and they DO) get a free pass?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by BionicGecko

While Amazon does market Prime on their EU websites, the sales pitch is not directly integrated in the purchase process (with big buttons for buying with Prime and small links for the "non-Prime" option). This would not fly at all under EU laws, as it is basically the same thing as "slamming" in in-person sales.

But mostly Irish (in EU) "have to buy" from Amazon UK, in Sterling. The same law does still apply in the UK, but the UK are not enforcing it.

Also there is the "in your face" marketing of Amazon branded "Credit" card* on every product page:

Looking for a company card? Pay £189.00 £164.00 for this order. Get a £25 Amazon Gift Card upon approval for the Amazon Business Amex Card.
No annual fee in the first year.
Rep. APR 38.3% Variable. Terms apply. Amazon is a broker, not a lender.

The Amazon Germany site is offered in English, but oddly many products there won't ship to Ireland, yet they do on Amazon UK, even when in some cases the supplier is German.

Also nearly impossible to see if it's Amazon or 3rd party you'll deal with over product issues when buying.

(*Is Amex a regular credit card like branded ones backed by Access or Barclaycard?).

Edit:
The copied text is from a monitor I bought. Advertised as 4K UHD and 2160p. It came today and it's only HD (1080p), not wrong model supplied, but wrong Amazon description. That means instant money back in UK or EU shops. But Amazon you go through hoops.

I've reported many wrong Amazon pages in last 20 years and only once has the description been amended (A full size SD card described as a micro-SD, so card can't fit. Other way round isn't so serious).

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Quoth

They also seem to deliberately delay shipping on some orders when you don't have Prime.

Well, faster shipping is one of the advertised benefits of Prime. It's part of what you are paying for with Prime. I'm pretty sure they are deliberately trying to ship Prime orders faster, which implies they are deliberately shipping other orders slower, to allow for Prime to take priority. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. If Amazon didn't do this, Prime subscribers would complain about paying for faster shipping and not getting it. But as things stand, it appears that some non-Prime customers are complaining about not getting Prime benefits for free.

[Quoth]

Shipping/despatch of stock item fulfilled by Amazon sometimes a week?
The actual time from dispatch to arrival doesn't vary much.

The shipping cost in many cases is the same, same carrier (a friend in town has Prime). What exactly are the Prime users paying for? Amazon has special deals with many carriers in many countries. It seems sometimes it's artificial to make Prime "look good".

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Quoth

What exactly are the Prime users paying for?

Answering only for me: free shipping on orders that 90% of the time get delivered the very next day (with exactly 1 return in over a decade). And television that I enjoy.

[Quoth]

Next day delivery is impossible on most orders to Ireland. Little is stored in Amazon Irish warehouses.

Someone is paying for the shipping, free is impossible, but most of my non-Prime orders have "free" shipping. Sometimes the price is the same Amazon Germany to Ireland without the free shipping.

Anyway, the issue with this case is not the value of Prime, that's up to the customer to decide. The issue is deceptive marketing of Prime at the checkout (except on Kindle ebooks, where the deceptive marketing is the "free" on search and book details page.

It's a completely separate argument if the Prime package itself is of deceptive value, or if non-Prime customers are artificially penalised in warehouse dispatch.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Next day delivery is impossible on most orders to Ireland. Little is stored in Amazon Irish warehouses.

Then you should have specified "What exactly are Irish Prime users paying for?"

I use a non-prime Amazon account for ordering stuff for a local business nearly every day. I've not experienced any of these "deceptive" practices to trick me into buying Prime. Sure. The offer's always there at checkout. But I've never almost accidentally signed up for Prime. My 86 yr-old father buys stuff all the time with his non-Prime Amazon account without getting tricked (and trust me... he always calls me when anything seems off to him).

The entire internet wants to try and sell me something I don't want, but I don't want the entire internet sued. *shrug*

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Then you should have specified "What exactly are Irish Prime users paying for?"

I use a non-prime Amazon account for ordering stuff for a local business nearly every day. I've not experienced any of these "deceptive" practices to trick me into buying Prime.

Well, that's your view. The EU and now the FTC take a different view. Also you can't be tricked into subscribing (a subscription, not a purchase) because you already have it and are familiar with Amazon. We know what the EU & FTC thinks and eventually we'll know what the USA courts think of the FTC claim and Amazon defence. You aren't a lawyer for Amazon?

I'm not trying to change your opinions, just stating observed facts, which the Court dealing with FTC (why do they need to sue?) vs Amazon can interpret.

And increasingly large companies are being penalised for treating Internet users in a way no local shop can treat local customers.
Cases with Apple (Italy fined them over fake warranties), Google/Alphabet, Microsoft, Twitter, Facebook/Meta, Etsy, Uber, AirBnB etc.
It's not FTC "picking on Amazon". There will be a level playing field and Internet traders ARE subject to the same laws as everyone else. Pretending they can make their own rules because they are big, or somewhere else, or on the Internet isn't going to work much longer. Why object to FTC vs Amazon if you want all the Internet sellers treated according to same laws as the main street?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Well, that's your view. The EU and now the FTC take a different view.

Of course. Hence me sharing it with others views on the subject.

And if you were "just stating observed facts", then Amazon would already be out of business. Thus indicating they're still just other people's views at this point. You, nor anyone for that matter, have proven the "deceptive marketing of Prime at the checkout." Is that one of the observed facts you're referring to?

The only observed facts I recognize at this point is that some people are excited that Amazon is being sued by the FTC, some dislike the notion, and some don't care at all. It's been turned into a team sport. Like everything else. When the decision is handed down, we can fight about it all over again. While Amazon will be largely unaffected. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Surely the punishment for bad behavior should first be loss of business, no? This could be handled without litigation if more people were willing to put their money where their ideals were.

Comcast was (is?) simultaneously the largest cable and ISP in the United States and the most hated company in the US. Your example is not as beautifully obvious as you think it is.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Answering only for me: free shipping on orders that 90% of the time get delivered the very next day (with exactly 1 return in over a decade). And television that I enjoy.

For me, it is the opposite. Prime is primarily useful for the Video. I really could care less about the next day shipping, because I am honest enough to admit that none of the crap I order from Amazon is urgent.

Every time they offer me a digital credit for slower shipping, I take it.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Comcast was (is?) simultaneously the largest cable and ISP in the United States and the most hated company in the US. Your example is not as beautifully obvious as you think it is.

The fact that people DON'T do what they should do to best punish a business they hate has no bearing on how obvious or effective it might be. It only shows that by and large, customers are exactly as self-serving as the corporations they despise for being the same. THAT playing field is perfectly level.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

The fact that people DON'T do what they should do to best punish a business they hate has no bearing on how obvious or effective it might be. It only shows that by and large, customers are exactly as self-serving as the corporations they despise for being the same. THAT playing field is perfectly level.

Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with the FTC lawsuit? Also, it can be difficult to fight a company that has a monopoly or near monopoly. People didn't owe their soul to the company store because it was their preferred place of business.

Maybe I misunderstood your post #20, but I thought you were saying that lack of droves of customers abandoning Amazon was some sort of proof that the lawsuit was an automatic nothing burger. If that is your point, I'm saying it ain't necessarily so.

Amazon and Walmart have run many smaller stores out of business, so that like it or not if you want that item, you will buy from Amazon. I don't know about you, but my local Adam & Eve doesn't stock a 55 gallon barrel of lube. For that essential product, I have to go to Amazon and run the gauntlet to avoid the looming Prime subscription

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Amazon and Walmart have run many smaller stores out of business, so that like it or not if you want that item, you will buy from Amazon. I don't know about you, but my local Adam & Eve doesn't stock a 55 gallon barrel of lube. For that essential product, I have to go to Amazon and run the gauntlet to avoid the looming Prime subscription

Yes, though:

Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.