Literary The MR Literary Club • Welcome, Information & General Discussion

[sun surfer]

Thanks for the comments so far. I see Bookpossum likes the bonus votes idea; does anybody else have an opinion on it? It might seem sort of like a big change so I'm curious how others feel about it. To get a taste of its breadth, here's who would be currently eligible:

Spoiler:

BelleZora, Bookpossum, Bookworm_Girl, caleb72, ccowie, desertblues, fantasyfan, Hamlet53, HomeInMyShoes, Lin2412, paola, sun surfer, Synamon

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

Hey team - no other comments? Poor old sun surfer needs some encouragement after all that typing!

Heheh. I will get you for calling me poor and old, just as soon as I finish telling those kids to get off my lawn.

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

We should only be reading books from 1947 to 1973.

There are a lot of countries with very few published or translated into English books. I've probably only got a dozen or two countries left that will be fairly easy to locate a book for. There's a reason Western Africa has proven hard for me to navigate (almost everything is only in French) and the Caribbean, Polynesia and Melanesia areas are just so unpopulated there is very little selection. I've found a few, but then even locating copies of the books is very difficult.

What if we just made the region vote into a journey around the world one where we have to pick an author from a country we haven't covered yet? That might keep things open enough that we'd be able to find books a little more easily.

Interesting idea. I'd like to keep the original Region category as is in the categories poll. issybird and I came up with the list of regions originally and I'm partial to it, and if nothing else I like the map I made for the category! If we reconfigure the category, it'd be complex and the map would be out. You're worried about not having enough to nominate from, but I see at least five or more categories left with loads of English-language or English-translation books - three European categories, Japan, China/Korea, a category with South Africa, a category with Australia and New Zealand, etc. At one per year, those alone would take us to 2022! I don't know if we'd choose an easier or harder region each time, but the possibility for an easier one is there and it'd be up to the majority on the poll. Of course having the category at all is dependant on whether it's chosen in the categories poll.

It almost seems like you're suggesting a new category though, and we could also add that to the categories poll if you want, as a separate category from Region. Maybe called something like "Journey around the World" or "World Journey"? If I'm understanding your concept correctly, maybe it could basically be an open category minus any countries of any authors of official monthly selections so far, so that every nomination would have to be from an author of a country we haven't read a book from yet? For this someone would need to go back and discern the countries of every author of an official selection so far and make a list. I'd rather have such a list before we add the category to the poll, so that I wouldn't be forced to make it myself if it won and so that people could see where the category would currently be at in terms of restriction. Is this along the lines of what you were thinking, HIMS? Let me know how you see it and if you want me to add it to the poll.

[BelleZora]

Just want to thank sun surfer for the work on this. I haven't participated for a few months because I am enduring a reading dry spell while experiencing a lingering concussion from a couple of accidents (don't ever knock yourself almost unconscious on the same general area that you suffered a concussion a few days earlier...Very bad) in March followed by moving several weeks later.

This club has introduced me to wonderful books I would not have otherwise discovered. I'm looking forward to taking part once more, but am abstaining from voting or comment until that great day comes when I can once again enjoy reading a book.

[sun surfer]

Ouch, I'm so sorry to hear about your accidents and concussion, BelleZora! I wish you a speedy recovery and look forward to when you're able to participate again.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^^We wish you all the best in getting better BelleZora. Take care.

@sun surfer: I am aware of how many countries there are and how long a journey that is. I've only gotten through 77 so far. I think most of my annoyance is Japan having its own category, Mexico not being part of North America and how little we look at African authors given that it is in only two categories with one including Western Asia. All that said, there really is no ideal for dividing this up.

Here is the list of countries so far which currently stands at a pretty respectable twenty and a Map in Google Maps

Australia - 2
Kate Grenville
Geraldine Brooks

Austria - 1
Stefan Zweig

Canada - 2
Anne Michaels
John Hemming

China - 1
Jung Chang

Colombia - 1
Gabriel Garcia Marquez

Egypt - 1
Naguib Mahfouz Egypt

France - 1
Henri Barbusse France

Germany - 1
Buddenbooks Germany

Ireland - 3
Colm Toibin
Frank O'Connor
George Bernard Shaw

Israel - 1
Amos Oz

Italy - 2
Alessandro Baricco
Dante

Japan - 2
Haruki Murakami
Yukio Mishima

Nigeria - 1
Chinua Achebe

Norway - 1
Henrik Ibsen

Philippines - 1
Jose Rizal

Poland - 1
Joseph Conrad

Russia - 3
Yevgeny Zamyatin
Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Mikhail Bulgakov

Turkey - 1
Orhan Pamuk

United Kingdom - 14
Evelyn Waugh
G K Chesterton
Vera Brittain
Patrick Leigh Fermor
Lytton Strachey
Anthony Trollope
Siegfried Sassoon
David Mitchell
Jane Austen
George Eliot
Kazuo Ishiguro
Saki
E M Forster
Charles Dickens

United States - 9
E L Doctorow
T S Eliot
Willa Cather
James Welch
Ernest Hemingway
Dawn Powell
Walt Whitman
Laura Hillebrand
Vladimir Nabokov

And the breakdown reinforces what I think in that having the following very tiny groupings is pointless to us discovering anything else about the world:

United Kingdom and Ireland
United States and Canada (although the fact I choose Canada for my month helped Canada)
Japan

I also think lumping Northern Africa in with Western Europe is unjust to Africa. But that is me.

And obviously some authors are difficult to categorize. I put Nabokov in the United States despite the fact he spent all of his formative years in Russia and Europe (to me he is not a North American writer even if he wrote in English) and I put Conrad in Poland, but he could very well be United Kingdom. If anyone objects I can move them around.

[desertblues]

I see it has been a lot of work for you, Sunsurfer. Bravo!
As I've taken some leave from the Bookclub, due to personal circumstances, I will not suggest or comment on the changes apart to say that they seem sensible. I am gratified to see I am included in the persons that are legible.....
Keep up the Bookclub, you all, till I return!

[Bookpossum]

Lovely to hear from BelleZora and desertblues. Best wishes to you both and I'm looking forward to your return in due course.

Great work HIMS! Unsurprisingly there is a heavy bias to English-speaking countries - staying in our comfort zone I suppose, getting what is readily available, and also to some extent the question of whether a translation will do the original justice.

Maybe we should have an extra category of countries awaiting exploration, though we would need to do some preliminary research on availability of books. Your journey around the world may stand us in good stead for that!

[ccowie]

I would also like to add a big thank you to Sun Surfer for all the work done for the club. Although my contributions have been rather modest lately, I want to express how much I really love this club. I've read many things that I wouldn't have otherwise and I've really appreciated being stretched a bit.

I like the proposed voting change. I also really like the rotating months, in fact I think they've been my favourites when it comes to investigating the nominees and voting. I haven't taken a month yet, but I would like to. In the past the rotating months seem to have come at times when I've been too busy, but I'm committed to taking one asap.

Injuries seem to have effected a few of us. So sorry to hear of your concussion BelleZora. Having played hockey all my life I've seen many and with adults they can be very difficult. Hockey was responsible for a bad rotator cuff tear for me a few months ago. I'll be under the knife next week for the repairs and will likely be silent for a while following that. Pain killers tend to make reading a little foggy and typing will be a bit tricky for a couple of weeks.

[Bookpossum]

Sorry to hear that ccowie. I hope the operation goes well and we'll look forward to having you back with us soon.

[caleb72]

I personally don't like the double votes for "frequent contributors" as I think it's a barrier of entry for anyone wanting to join in. Once you find out your vote is worth half that of the existing clique, you start to feel excluded. But that's just me. It won't make a difference to me contributing in the future.

[sun surfer]

Nice to see so many of you commenting! Categories poll will go up today or tomorrow.

desertblues, I hope everything is going well for you and looking forward to your participation again as well.

ccowie, I'm looking forward to whenever you have your rotating month, and best wishes on your surgery!

caleb, thanks for giving your opinion on bonus votes because I've been curious if anyone didn't like the idea, and I agree with you somewhat. The tricky thing is that it's a double-edged sword with or without bonus votes; there are downsides to both. I did work to make the bonus votes as open and welcoming as I possibly could because of the same worries you have. If there's a barrier then it's a very low and easy barrier to cross, and people are welcome to still vote and participate any time without crossing it too. Also, it could encourage more participation by anyone wanting bonus votes. Even so, this would only be a trial and we'd see how it goes, though if enough of the club doesn't want it then we won't even try it.

HIMS, that list is very interesting to look at in its own right. I'll put the category on the poll. It still sounds a little more complex than normal to manage but definitely doable.

As to the Region category, I originally lobbied for Japan to be combined with China/Korea when making the list but was persuaded otherwise since Japan and Korea have a contentious history, and since despite its small region size Japan is very rich culturally with literature.

The regions were divided not exactly by population, size or exact geographic areas, but often rather by some type of cultural relationship and collective literary output so that when a region is chosen we'd be focusing on a certain somewhat similar cultural area (even if on a large and simplified scale) that would offer a sizeable enough amount of nominations, and this will help explain a lot of the complaints you have.

Mexico is part of the Latin America region because it's closer to it culturally than to the U.S. or Canada.

Africa has two regions, generally divided between the mid and southern areas that are more fertile and often have indigenous beliefs or Christian ones, and the northern areas that are more arid and desert and often have Islamic and Arabic roots.

Northern Africa is combined with the Middle East because they share much culturally and historically. It might be a little ironic that a culturally-Jewish author from Israel won that month since Israel is so very different from most countries of the region, but the selection was completely kosher and anyway we had two culturally-Islamic authors from the region win in other months not long afterwards.

Everywhere in the world is represented (if you look at the map, even Antarctica!). There is a very specific reason for the categories of the U.S. and Canada and also the U.K. and Ireland. If they were included with other countries, say Mexico for North America, then there's a very real chance you might be hoping for Mexican selections but instead we end up with mostly U.S. ones and a U.S. winner. Same with the U.K. and Ireland with Europe. Those needed to be separated into their own categories so that they wouldn't overshadow any other countries in a region (alternately, we chose the opposite route with Australia and New Zealand since the South Pacific would be very difficult to find nominations for otherwise).

A few authors are difficult to categorise and I agree with you about Nabokov, but I was outvoted that month. For your list, since both countries are already accounted for it doesn't matter which he's listed under anyway. Conrad is difficult too but I agree well enough with your leaving him in Poland.


ETA - The categories poll is now up!

[Bookworm_Girl]

Originally Posted by caleb72

I personally don't like the double votes for "frequent contributors" as I think it's a barrier of entry for anyone wanting to join in. Once you find out your vote is worth half that of the existing clique, you start to feel excluded. But that's just me. It won't make a difference to me contributing in the future.

I've been thinking about this question and feel somewhat the same way. I'd like to see more people join the club. Although it's frustrating when people vote and then don't participate.

Best wishes and happy health to all!

[ccowie]

Originally Posted by Bookworm_Girl

I've been thinking about this question and feel somewhat the same way. I'd like to see more people join the club. Although it's frustrating when people vote and then don't participate.

I still think this plan actually encourages newcomers to be involved, but I certainly understand the concern. I've noticed (more in the other club than the literary club) that some like to vote, but if the book chosen is something they're not interested in, they simply don't read and participate. This likely shouldn't bug me, but it does. I read several books that I was not necessarily interested in. Sometimes I was pleasantly surprised and sometimes I still participated and indicated why I didn't like the book. I think, like any club, if one nominates and votes for books, then they should participate in the reading and discussion of the group selection.

[HomeInMyShoes]

@sun surfer. There is always more than one way to divide things and I agree that Northern Africa has similar roots to parts of the Middle East, but Africa is a lot larger and diverse than two categories to me. I am only stating that there is a lot of the world we will not cover in the twelve or so regions we have.

I will say that the club has done remarkably well having hit 20 countries so far.

[Bookpossum]

Originally Posted by ccowie

I still think this plan actually encourages newcomers to be involved, but I certainly understand the concern. I've noticed (more in the other club than the literary club) that some like to vote, but if the book chosen is something they're not interested in, they simply don't read and participate. This likely shouldn't bug me, but it does. I read several books that I was not necessarily interested in. Sometimes I was pleasantly surprised and sometimes I still participated and indicated why I didn't like the book. I think, like any club, if one nominates and votes for books, then they should participate in the reading and discussion of the group selection.

I agree ccowie. Surely the whole point of a Book Club is to participate, whether the book you chose got up or not. Sometimes you don't enjoy the chosen book, but some are real discoveries, and surely that's what it's all about, along with getting insights from what other people found in a book that you may have missed.

And I think the requirement to have participated, i.e. joined in the discussion, for two months in the previous six is not a tough requirement for anyone who genuinely wants to join the Club. It simply means that the small membership should not be swamped by people who fly by, think it might be fun to vote for something, and then disappear again without trace.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Can I ask that my vote only count once. I am not more important than anyone else whether they just found us or not...

I'm answering this here to try to keep discussion on the subject in one place.

I think the only way for this to work is to be an all-in type of thing where anyone eligible gets the bonus regardless.

I agree with you that neither you nor I nor anyone else is more important than someone who may have just found us, but that's not the only way to look at it. One possible analogy is as if we were a non-internet in-person small book club who meets in a very public space, such as say a park. In this park, people pass by and notice us, sometimes people that are familiar with us and sometimes completely random people. Many pass on but a few stop in, sometimes for a quick visit and sometimes for awhile. We are very happy with that and we love new blood and old friends re-visiting, even if it's just someone stopping in for one month or one comment. However, being in such a public space as this park, there's the possibility that someone who has no real interest in the club or even the month in question strolls by and sees us having a poll, then pops in just to vote for fun and then walks away. That's fine, that's allowed, but should that person's vote really count the same as the rest of us, especially if with such a small group and often close votes one vote can tilt everything? It's not that we're more important than anyone else; it's that we're the ones with the vested interest in the club and the ones that will be abiding by the outcome of the polls. And even considering all that, the bar is set very low for anyone interested to qualify for bonus votes. If I put myself in the shoes of someone without bonus votes, I think I wouldn't be put-off and would think it makes sense, and I hope anyone who doesn't have bonus votes (yet!) will see it this way.

Even with all that, this is only a temporary trial at this point. Given the varying opinions so far, we'll try it for a short amount of time, say three months or so, and then I'll take an informal vote on its future by post in this thread and we'll go with the majority.