Unchangeable font

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by Hitch

]If you don't care what the reader does, with the body, you should remove the body font tag. No reason for it, unless you want to force the body font to be serif (and NOT sans serif on the KF8 eInks). If you do want the body font to be other than sans, then keep the body font declaration
Secondly, don't use spans to create the font for the Fraktur.
Apply it to the correct classes, e.g, p.Fraktur, h1.fraktur, or whatever you're going to call them.

In this case, these aren't headings, but some words in a <p> paragraph. So they have to be spans.
And so in Kindle you have to have "Publisher Font" to see them.
And so the body font becomes sans unless I style it otherwise.

Blame the author who liked to play with typography.
(That's why I was doing this book, as an exercise to see if I could make the effects work in ebook as they did on paper, without resorting to images of text.)

Originally Posted by Hitch

There's a definite, not-yet-fully-understood issue with fonts on Spans, in MOBI format. For one thing, there's a limit to the number of spans. I'm not sure that it's what's affecting your book, but it absolutely, positively exists.

But in mobi you can't change fonts at all (aside from serif/sans), I thought? Anyway, not too concerned about mobi format, though would not break it unnecessarily.
I have 21 spans in the book, most of them to make a standing cap.

Originally Posted by Hitch

That should not be happening. Regardless of whether you choose Publisher font or not, the Fraktur should display. Try going back and applying the font on the correct elements, rather than spans, and see if the issue persists. FWIW, unless it's a one-off, at my shop, bookmakers are not allowed to use spans for fonts. Too many issues surrounding that sort of undifferentiated usage.

I do follow that "rule" myself. I don't use spans to style headings. Very rarely an entire paragraph of any kind.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

But you should not need to select “publisher font” at all.

Your book should display any of the built-in fonts selected by the user for the main text. It should also show your embedded font in the limited places it is used, regardless of which main font the user has chosen.

@Jhowell:

Well, the "shoulds" aside, what he's describing echoes our experience. Once a font--any font, even one used once for a fleuron--is embedded, the body font will always default to Sans-serif, unless overridden by other CSS establishing a specific body font or setting it to serif.

Amazon's well aware of this, or, at least, I've discussed it with them on no less than 3 occasions over the last 3-4 years.

Hitch

[AlanHK]

.....

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

In this case, these aren't headings, but some words in a <p> paragraph. So they have to be spans.
And so in Kindle you have to have "Publisher Font" to see them.
And so the body font becomes sans unless I style it otherwise.

Yeah, okay, we run into that also. HOWEVER, in Kindle, even w/o Publisher font selected, you should still see what's in the spans (in the KF8's, obviously).

Blame the author who liked to play with typography.
(That's why I was doing this book, as an exercise to see if I could make the effects work in ebook as they did on paper, without resorting to images of text.)

I feel ya. I've got one in right now with 10 bloody fonts, 8 of them handwriting. If you're hearing a weird noise in the troposphere, that's me screaming.

But in mobi you can't change fonts at all (aside from serif/sans), I thought? Anyway, not too concerned about mobi format, though would not break it unnecessarily.
I have 21 spans in the book, most of them to make a standing cap.

I do not go along with the Calibre-terminology of "AZW3" and "MOBI." The dual-file that we produce, for Amazon, is a MOBI file. Is it a KF7 mobi? No. It's a dual mobi, containing both KF7 and KF8, but it still has a .mobi file extension, and thus, I'm not going to call it something else. When I say MOBI, I mean a dual mobi. If I am discussing a KF7 mobi, I'll call it a KF7 or KF7 MOBI. I wasn't discussing KF7 with you, because obviously the topic of fonts is irrelevant in that context.

I do follow that "rule" myself. I don't use spans to style headings. Very rarely an entire paragraph of any kind.

Yeah. Too many spans=too many headaches, on too many fronts.

I'm not sure what's causing your issue, but the spanned font should be working. Try making the book with only a single chapter--for speed in troubleshooting--and see if the spanned font text suddenly shows up in the right font. I've seen oddities like that happen, too, where I had to bracket navigate a problem, removing chapters, etc. to get to the coding that was causing the issue.

If you don't set a body font, does the spanned font work? I don't mean, selecting it on the device--I mean, if you completely remove the font setting on the body CSS, does it work then?


Hitch

[JSWolf]

So if a font is embedded and the following code is used, does this mean there is no need for publisher font?

<p><span class="somefont">This is the paragraph I want to show the embedded font.</span></p>

So if that's done for the entire book, would the embedded font display without the need for publisher font?

[JSWolf]

OK, I've tested an embedded font called via a <span> and the only way for it to show up is via publisher font. Any of the other fonts overrides this. This is using firmware 5.8.11 on a PW3.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

OK, I've tested an embedded font called via a <span> and the only way for it to show up is via publisher font. Any of the other fonts overrides this. This is using firmware 5.8.11 on a PW3.

Wolfie:

Well, I hope that's wrong. I mean, as far as I know, that's not our experience. So, you are testing this on a PW3? That's not a published book, right? That's a book you've made, and then sideloaded?

(n.b.: I ask this because, as scary as it is, sideloading books MAY NOT display properly. Nope, I'm not making that up.)

I'll talk to my guys and get back. Can't promise it will be today.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

OK, I've tested an embedded font called via a <span> and the only way for it to show up is via publisher font. Any of the other fonts overrides this. This is using firmware 5.8.11 on a PW3.

You're embedding that font, right? Can you show us the CSS?

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

You're embedding that font, right? Can you show us the CSS?

Hitch

The eBook is a one that's ePub 2. I edited it and then use Kindlegen to convert. I then used Kindleunpack to split the KF8/Mobi and used Calibre to side load the KF8. This is using a PW3 with firmware 5.8.11.

Here is the full CSS.

@font-face {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  src: url(../fonts/EurostileLTStd-Oblique.otf);
  font-style: italic;
  font-weight: normal;
  }
@font-face {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  src: url(../fonts/EurostileLTStd.otf);
  font-style: normal;
  font-weight: normal;
  }
body {
  widows: 1;
  orphans: 1;
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-right: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  margin-left: 0;
  text-align: justify;
}
p {
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  text-indent: 1.2em;
}
.copy {
  font-size: 0.9em;
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.copya {
  font-size: small;
  margin-top: 0.8em;
  margin-bottom: 0.2em;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.copyb {
  font-size: small;
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0.8em;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.ded {
  margin-top: 4em;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  margin-left: 1.8em;
  margin-right: 1.8em;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.epi1 {
  margin-top: 4em;
  margin-bottom: 1em;
  margin-left: 1.8em;
  margin-right: 1.8em;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.epi2 {
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  margin-left: 1.8em;
  margin-right: 1.8em;
  text-align: right;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.f1 {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
}
.h2a {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  font-size: 1.5em;
  font-weight: normal;
  margin-top: 0.8em;
  margin-bottom: 0.8em;
  page-break-after: avoid;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.h2c {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  font-size: 1.1em;
  font-weight: normal;
  margin-top: 0.8em;
  margin-bottom: 0.8em;
  page-break-after: avoid;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.h2chap {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  font-size: 1.6em;
  font-weight: normal;
  color: #777;
  margin-top: 4em;
  margin-bottom: 1.5em;
  page-break-after: avoid;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.h2sub {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  font-size: 2em;
  font-weight: normal;
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  page-break-after: avoid;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.imagefp {
  margin: 0;
  height: 100%;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.ipadfp {
  margin: 0;
  height: 100%;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.noindent {
  margin-top: 0;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.noindentq {
  margin-top: 1.8em;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.secbreak {
  margin-top: 1em;
  margin-bottom: 1em;
  text-align: center;
  text-indent: 0;
}
.stickup {
  font-family: "EurostileLTStd";
  font-size: 2em;
  line-height: 0;
}
span.smallcaps {
  font-size: 0.75em;
}
span.txit {
  font-style: italic;
}

Here is the code from the book from the top of the file to the end of the paragraph that has the span.

<?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8'?>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<head>
<title>Original Sin</title>
<link href="../styles/9781501133244.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/>
</head>
<body>
<h2 class="h2c">Gamma Quadrant, 2386</h2>
<p class="noindent"><span class="stickup">T</span>he <i>Galaxy</i>-class starship jolted hard, as though it had slammed into something while soaring through the Gamma Quadrant. A tremendous roar filled the <i>Robinson</i> bridge as the impact hurled Captain Benjamin Sisko from the command chair. The deck canted beneath him and he flew over the operations console. Pain flared in his knee as it struck the back of Commander Gwendolyn Plante’s head. He landed in front of the main viewscreen, trying to cushion his fall with his outstretched hands. Agony sliced through Sisko’s right wrist as it gave way. He heard the snap of a bone not through his ears, but inside his body. Instantly nauseated, Sisko ignored both the feeling and his injury.</p>
<p>“Status report,” he called out. <span class="f1">The captain had to raise his voice to be heard above the shrill quaver of the automated shipwide alert that blared on and off in time with visual signals flashing red.</span> The ruddy tint of emergency lighting suffused the bridge.</p>

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The eBook is a one that's ePub 2. I edited it and then use Kindlegen to convert. I then used Kindleunpack to split the KF8/Mobi and used Calibre to side load the KF8. This is using a PW3 with firmware 5.8.11.

Here is the full CSS.
<snipped for space>

Here is the code from the book from the top of the file to the end of the paragraph that has the span.
<more snippage>

Hmmm...I wonder if it's possible that the Zon has once again updated the KF8 format, for the PPW family of devices? My initial glance at this says to me that it ought to work. But you're saying that it doesn't, and I have no reason to disbelieve you.

I'll dig into it. (Better yet, I'll ask my guys to dig into it.)

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hmmm...I wonder if it's possible that the Zon has once again updated the KF8 format, for the PPW family of devices? My initial glance at this says to me that it ought to work. But you're saying that it doesn't, and I have no reason to disbelieve you.

I'll dig into it. (Better yet, I'll ask my guys to dig into it.)

Hitch

I can also test this on a Kindle Touch with a much older firmware. I'll do so and let you know what happens.

[JSWolf]

Just in case it was something caused by splitting with Kindlegen, I tried the eBook unsplit and it still reacted the same with the embedded font.

[JSWolf]

I've tested this with a Kindle Touch and same thing with both the KF8 and dual-format. If you want to display an embedded font you have to use Publisher font. There's no way around it. And yes, you do get sans-serif if the text has no font defined.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've tested this with a Kindle Touch and same thing with both the KF8 and dual-format. If you want to display an embedded font you have to use Publisher font. There's no way around it. And yes, you do get sans-serif if the text has no font defined.

Well, (*&^%$#@!, That means that something has changed. B*GGER.

The guys will take a look, and when they update me, I'll update the thread.

Hitch

[jhowell]

I created a test EPUB with an embedded font used for h1 elements. No font was specified for the body or regular paragraphs.

Master MOBI (MOBI+KF8) and AZK were created using Kindle Previewer 2.94. KFX was created using Kindle Previewer 3.15 and the KFX Output calibre plugin.

The results were as follows:

MOBI+KF8 (Kindle Previewer 3.15 - Tablet device, Kindle for PC 1.20.1, Kindle for Android 7.18.0.1), AZK (Kindle for iOS 5.15.2), KFX (Kindle Previewer 3.15, Paperwhite II 5.8.11): Main body text shows whatever font the user selects and headings always show the embedded font.

MOBI+KF8 (Kindle Previewer 2.94 - Voyage device, Paperwhite II 5.8.11): Main body text and headings show whatever font the user selects. Headings show the embedded font only when "Publisher font" is selected.


So the e-ink Kindles rendering KF8 are the exception and do not behave as I would expect.