The intersection of DRM, fair use, and ereader device spying

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

Please read the "Terms and Conditions" that you agreed to when you created an account on that ebook store.

I am under no obligation to read, nor abide by terms and conditions. If it is not made absolutely clear, (and I have no interest in "fine print") then I am not aware of it. Thankfully Australian Trade Practice Act agrees with this. Fine print is not acceptable. If it isn't made plain, as plain as the text advertising the product, it isn't legally valid. Also, clicking to proceed does not constitute an acceptance in law. Only a signature from me on an agreement would make it binding.

It is similar to those "search your bag" signs on stores. Entering the store does not constitute acceptance. That was tried and tested in law decades ago. The stores lost. If ever I am asked "Do you mind if I look inside your bag" by store staff, I respond "Yes, I do mind" and keep walking. Only once did staff try to take that further and it resulted in my receiving an apology from the store management and the staff member being made aware - in front of me - that it was a request and not a right on the part of the store. Usually if I say no, the person asking just shrugs and walks away. The store has no legal right. They can only stop you legally if they actually can prove that you have stolen something, and as I don't steal things and resent being treated as though I do, I always refuse.

[sadievan]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

I'm more worried about Google's keeping a record of my searches (which by the way, they are) than the *maybe's* of what Amazon is doing.

Try 'startpage https' for track free searches. You can add it to the search bar in Firefox also.

https://startpage.com/

Carol

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

I am under no obligation to read, nor abide by terms and conditions. If it is not made absolutely clear, (and I have no interest in "fine print") then I am not aware of it.

You are bouncing around in your argument.

You said:

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

When you buy from any online store there is no "Official" notification that the material is locked to your device.

The fact of the matter is that there WAS official notification. You chose not to read it, and it appears based on what you say, that the Australian government will not allow T&C to be enforced. But that is a far different story than your claim that no official notification was made that the material will be locked down.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

You are bouncing around in your argument.

You said:


The fact of the matter is that there WAS official notification. You chose not to read it, and it appears based on what you say, that the Australian government will not allow T&C to be enforced. But that is a far different story than your claim that no official notification was made that the material will be locked down.

No bounce at all. An official notification is one that adheres to legal requirements, i.e., not one buried in fine print.

An official notification would have you tick a box as you made the purchase, indicating that the item had DRM. I buy a lot of stuff from Amazon and have never seen such a notice.

I just checked the first "Best Seller" listed. This is all it has in product description on the "One Click" purchase page. No mention of DRM. If it was to be "unhidden" here would be a good place to put it.

Product Details

File Size: 395 KB
Print Length: 206 pages
Sold by: Amazon Digital Services, Inc.
Language: English
ASIN: B00745A40K
Text-to-Speech: Enabled
X-Ray: Not Enabled
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #11,233 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
Would you like to give feedback on images or tell us about a lower price?

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

No bounce at all. An official notification is one that adheres to legal requirements, i.e., not one buried in fine print.

An official notification would have you tick a box as you made the purchase, indicating that the item had DRM. I buy a lot of stuff from Amazon and have never seen such a notice.

So you would rather click 6 boxes (one per screen) each time you view an ebook on Amazon? And then 6 more before you purchase?

The TOS is 6 print pages long.

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by Fbone

So you would rather click 6 boxes (one per screen) each time you view an ebook on Amazon? And then 6 more before you purchase?

The TOS is 6 print pages long.

No, how do you arrive at that?

Unless a condition (unenforceable anyway) is on the page that I see when I make the purchase I have no interest in it. If I can find something that I want to purchase and then purchase it without seeing a condition limiting the functionality of that purchase then they are not being open. End of story - fine print is meaningless under our consumer law.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

. . . fine print is meaningless under our consumer law.

Might this be part of the reason that eBook prices are high in Australia?

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Might this be part of the reason that eBook prices are high in Australia?

I don't buy from Amazon using an Australian account so I have no idea. Much hardware and software is dearer in Australia, but in the case of downloadable items, if you have a US credit card and address you aren't penalised.

The issue here is that DRM is an attempt at business manipulation, an attempt to monopolise my custom. It is not a legal OR an enforceable contractual obligation. If I buy a piece of music or a book, I am buying the licence to those works, I am not buying the media or the medium used to deliver them. As long as I don't breach copyright by distributing them I am breaking no law or contract. They can plaster their site with wishful thinking, and with many people it will work, they are suckered into believing that they have a legal obligation to abide by the conditions Amazon attempt to impose.

They also have conditions about reverse engineering their firmware and software, those are also unenforceable - as long what I do is for my own purpose and use. If I modify software to make it more suitable for my own use, it is nobody's business but mine. People too often regard TOS as law. It is far from law, except where it echoes existing law. The final issue is that without a signature, no contract is valid. Clicking past a few pages of fine print nonsense does not constitute a contractual agreement. Unfortunately too many people believe that it does.

[speakingtohe]

Would that it was so in Canada

Many dealings with even the Canadian government agencies such as Revenue Canada, Employment insurance, require only a click to truly commit you.

Not sure about the legalities, but would be a monumental task to click first and argue later.

Helen

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Would that it was so in Canada

Many dealings with even the Canadian government agencies such as Revenue Canada, Employment insurance, require only a click to truly commit you.

Not sure about the legalities, but would be a monumental task to click first and argue later.

Helen

We have many online contracts here also, but they are very clear in context - no fine print. You have to tick every box. For instance I registered a new company recently, I did it online, but before it was filed and accepted, I had to fill in and return the written contract that was mailed to me. Until then it was tentative. I can do things like renew my driving or boating licence online, but when the hard copy arrives it includes a "If you did not authorise this..." covering letter. As a part of doing many of these things online you are required to fill in details pertaining to personal data that most others would not know. Many services require you to provide the answers to several questions, plus a code word which must be used before they accept an online or telephone transaction. You are always offered the opportunity to opt out. We have a ten day "Cooling Off Period" by law. You can always change your mind, even on things like signing up for a new phone contract, or purchasing something on credit.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by DarkScribe

We have many online contracts here also, but they are very clear in context - no fine print. You have to tick every box. For instance I registered a new company recently, I did it online, but before it was filed and accepted, I had to fill in and return the written contract that was mailed to me. Until then it was tentative. I can do things like renew my driving or boating licence online, but when the hard copy arrives it includes a "If you did not authorise this..." covering letter. As a part of doing many of these things online you are required to fill in details pertaining to personal data that most others would not know. Many services require you to provide the answers to several questions, plus a code word which must be used before they accept an online or telephone transaction. You are always offered the opportunity to opt out. We have a ten day "Cooling Off Period" by law. You can always change your mind, even on things like signing up for a new phone contract, or purchasing something on credit.

Well in Canada we have a cooling off period with the government in that you can always turn yourself in before they catch you if you are defrauding them.

They do ask for your mother's maiden name, but that is easy to find out by all but the most simple, and Afaik they don't actually check to see if it is correct, and only get antsy if you try and change the spelling etc. as long as it is the same as the first time you enter it when dealing with the particular government agency.

Also it is incredibly easy to get thius information for others even if you have no desire to have it.

I work in a remote northern community in the summer and several people (more than 10) have asked me to set up a Service Canada Account for them. I do and tell them to change the password immediately. Two did, one to his wifes name and one to her oldest child's name. I know this because they were having trouble logging on and they told me. Several left it unchanged I assume as the following year or later, I was asked "Oh yeah, what was the password you gave me?".

Anyway Australia may be more secure today but expediency could change that in a wink.

Helen

[DarkScribe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Anyway Australia may be more secure today but expediency could change that in a wink.

Helen

Unfortunately you are correct. We are living in a world where governments are becoming more and more despotic. They are losing sight of their purview, which is to represent the will of the majority of the people, and instead are attempting to force the will of the leaders onto the people. Selling off public assets etc., to cover shortfalls caused by lack of foresight or bad planning. They are merely caretakers of assets owned by the people, but regard them as a source of quick cash. The new carbon tax is a good example. All surveys show that the majority of people are against it, but our Prime Minister has introduced it anyway. Of course she will be out of office soon and would have been well aware of that when she made the decision.