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Old 05-13-2019, 09:06 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Difflugia View Post

I'm not surprised by Amazon's actions, but that's not because they're acting reasonably; it's because Amazon writes promises in such a way that they don't feel compelled to keep them.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:45 AM   #107
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I think there might just be one or 2 of them that have come away thinking "Hmm, didn't know that before".
I'm one of those that didn't know there was this invisible limit before. However, when I asked if you could give us some approximation of the number of books per month you are talking about, you never responded to that. Yes, I know at one time you did say you'd admit to "x00", but that's not very useful because it covers such a wide range.

So while I did learn something from your posts (there's a limit), I did not learn anything very useful (like, what approximately is this limit?) It should be quite easy for you to guess and come a tad closer than just "x00", and we are left wondering why you apparently don't want to. My guess is that the number must be really really high and you are maybe a little embarrassed to admit it because then you'd also have to admit, "Yeah, I guess that number does look a little fraudulent when I think about it". But that's only a guess. I honestly don't know why you keep avoiding answering this question. It is actually a very predictable question that you should have anticipated when starting up a thread like this.

What this does, when you don't appear to want to answer the obvious question, is it makes it appear that you are hiding something, and this in turn makes it appear that maybe your posts have not been 100% straightforward, which then makes it appear than this whole thread might be a trolling operation rather than a truthful event. I can only tell you how you appear to me, having read your posts. You started out strong, but then appeared to move into evasiveness and misdirection as people began asking questions. So at this point, I don't really know what to make of your posts. I will probably continue reading them - they are quite entertaining, if nothing else - but I'm not so sure I'll be using them to form an opinion on what Amazon has or has not done here. Everything has just gotten too vague at this point.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:12 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
Fair enough, that's why I used the small recipe books and gardening books as a more realistic similar example.
Unless I've missed something from your post, you had no issues when checking out and reading the recipe and gardening books?
So the more realistic example didn't seem to trigger any limits.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:34 AM   #109
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Yes, I know at one time you did say you'd admit to "x00", but that's not very useful because it covers such a wide range.
I’ve actually said more than that in following posts but naturally I expect many have just “skimmed” some sections of this thread …… just as I did/do with the KU books. You’ll see I’ve said that I’m not surprised my account was “flagged” due to the large use I displayed in April but a summary DOS, with no explanation to me or any note on my account to say why, had even the Support staff chasing their tails for just shy of 2 weeks. They had me “Cancel” my membership and immediately resubscribe a couple of times to try clear “any blocks” but to no avail. So my current membership is dated 1st May even though I joined last year with very little use til April.

Specificity …… I’ll try and get screenshots up but ….. I can’t tell you or the other “concerned elders” an exact number. Amazon’s “Your Kindle Unlimited” page does NOT display stats and figures of “Borrowed” books or History numbers (at least not in my Mac’s Firefox).

I’m on an old ADSL slow connection here in the sticks and my 2007 model is a tad slow at downloading large files. So to answer the pointed question means I have to keep scrolling down the page and manually counting titles as they load up, which I started to do but stopped at roughly 250 for April but knew there were still more. OK so lets say the flag was set at >300 or even 500 for the month……. how long is it reasonable and relevant for me to sit there scrolling; marking lines on a piece of paper like the Count of Monte Christo in his cell just to say XXX! Let’s just agree that what you and I say is a LOT is a lot but it’s still NOT “Unlimited” in ANY language or interpretation.

I’ve already openly admitted to “high” browsing in April and have NOT complained of being flagged - I’ll happily compare to the fat kid in Willy Wonka’s factory, they let me keep “eating” and I binged.

What I’m deeply “concerned” at is that there was no investigation or followup to see if my account had been hacked; if they really were that worried. What if some hacker had hijacked my account and started searching for ………… ? Well, you get the idea!

It can’t have been too much of a worry for Amazon because they didn’t cancel my account at all or stop debiting my account like they allegedly have with others according to;
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....... This is the same pattern (and subsequent discussion) that we've seen before with Amazon closing accounts, limiting returns, disabling device access, and not paying earned referral commissions. In each case, Amazon's actions contradicted their published terms with the exception of vague "at Amazon's discretion" clauses …..
Amazon are still happily debiting my account, especially with today’s book purchase; making “30 orders placed in the last 6 months”. These are charged order$ NOT Borrowed KU books.

I’m definitely NOT being evasive, just don’t want to have to jump through irrelevant hoops, especially when the basic premise is already “agreed” anyway.

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So while I did learn something from your posts (there's a limit), I did not learn anything very useful (like, what approximately is this limit?)
My point EXACTLY ! ….. they still won’t tell me/us, that’s precisely what I asked for and want to know. In any event, it’s beyond dispute very clearly now that Amazon KU is definitely is NOT “Unlimited” to any reasonable mind.


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What this does, when you don't appear to want to answer the obvious question, is it makes it appear that you are hiding something, and this in turn makes it appear that maybe your posts have not been 100% straightforward, which then makes it appear than this whole thread might be a trolling operation rather than a truthful event. I can only tell you how you appear to me, having read your posts. You started out strong, but then appeared to move into evasiveness and misdirection as people began asking questions.
.

Well dare I say it; with all the accusations and allegations levelled at me here in this thread from the beginning to now, especially by Elders, it might [i]“appear “[i] to some that I’ve maybe even been somewhat bullied, harassed and put on the defensive for daring to speak perceived ill against the great and sacred Amazon Gods. But I’ll leave that to the X,000+ read counts to judge that for themselves.

I hope that users see my protracted “disobedience” and challenge to “commercial authority” as academic rather than personal.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:49 AM   #110
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Unless I've missed something from your post, you had no issues when checking out and reading the recipe and gardening books?
So the more realistic example didn't seem to trigger any limits.
Muzza, hopefully the last post answered your question.


But still up for more if anyones curious about anything else I've said.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:39 AM   #111
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:27 AM   #112
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Well dare I say it; with all the accusations and allegations levelled at me here in this thread from the beginning to now, especially by Elders, it might [i]“appear “[i] to some that I’ve maybe even been somewhat bullied, harassed and put on the defensive for daring to speak perceived ill against the great and sacred Amazon Gods. But I’ll leave that to the X,000+ read counts to judge that for themselves.
I don't think anyone has accused you of actually doing anything fraudulent?
What has been said is that your actions fit the pattern of fraudulent behaviour, so the automated systems have flagged you.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:24 AM   #113
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Perhaps the next Amazon programming meeting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9PY...&frags=pl%2Cwn
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:07 AM   #114
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In the interests of fairness and balance I can report that my Amazon KU account is now back to full activity.

I won't be repeating any more "binges" to similar levels to what sparked my original post so don't anticipate any further issues at this stage.

I still have not received any answers or other correspondence to my support ticket but I'm happy to drop the issue in the current circumstances

Thanks to all for your interest and useful information.

Cheers..
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:57 PM   #115
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I've had times where I went through probably 50 books in a month, with no problem.

And there are corner cases, like there are series with over 10 small "books" that are in the tradition of serialized fiction when fiction magazines were more of a thing. For example, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P74WDQL
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:25 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Mistyfarm View Post
Have you noticed the read count lately? What does that tell you?
It tells me that this thread is highly interesting. It started out as if it would hold some factual value in the beginning. Turned out it was even more valuable considering the amount of entertainment. Unfortunately for you, it was probably at your expense. Fortunately for me, it was free of charge.

More relevant for the discussion at hand I have a rhetorical question for you. Why would you go through the pain of borrowing 250(*) titles with KU in batches of 10 if you only skimmed to see if they are worth reading at a later time? Couldn't you have simply gotten the samples instead? Or skim the samples with the "look inside" feature?

(*): 250 sounds like a reasonable limit, since you admitted it is more than that. So we can simply assume that 250 borrows is a hard limit you should try to stay under each month. It is pretty simple to stay under that limit if you borrow what you intend to read next.
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:37 AM   #117
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It tells me that this thread is highly interesting. It started out as if it would hold some factual value in the beginning. Turned out it was even more valuable considering the amount of entertainment. Unfortunately for you, it was probably at your expense. Fortunately for me, it was free of charge.
Thanks DT,

I’ve never been one to shy away from a good stoush and I know how to cop it sweet for the first few smacks at least, having been married a couple of times now!

It started out as what I thought was a fairly simple query and people naturally filled in their own blanks, fair enough. I just wanted to know if any of the gurus knew a rough number so I wouldn’t fall foul in future coz Amazon had been struck down mute to my query ….. at the same time letting every one else know that “Unlimited” was really only 3 digits at best. And the rest is now History ……..


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More relevant for the discussion at hand I have a rhetorical question for you. Why would you go through the pain of borrowing 250(*) titles with KU in batches of 10 if you only skimmed to see if they are worth reading at a later time? Couldn't you have simply gotten the samples instead? Or skim the samples with the "look inside" feature?
If it was really rhetorical, you wouldn’t be wanting an answer but I get your meaning…..

Easy enough. Just do a search of any middle of the road KU subject and you’ll get anything from 2 pages to 400 pages. Many won’t have a review to guide you and when you look in the quick view, if you’re lucky, you’ll get a TOC and a few introductory pages, with the “interesting” stuff being out of range. That’s if the TOC isn’t simply a I, II, III, IV, V with no descriptors. And the crappier titles are just leads to a sales pitch.

The “samples” are usually not much better than teasers at best.

I was looking for specific stuff (it would take a couple of pages to explain - then I’d get even more questions, judgements etc) but needless to say it was shotgun approach stuff, with the help of a local shiraz or 2 to help mellow me, I just pointed and clicked …….

By way of example again let me use recipe books. You want the world’s best burger, pizza, bread, sushi etc, whatever. There’s no way that you could keep the just 10 recipe books allowed on your Kindle “Unlimited” shelf.

So whaddya do? You binge, mark the books that have that interesting Wagyu meat patty, the genuine Neapolitana pizza sauce, that no knead sourdough recipe in it. And you go back to them when you want, just as it is explicitly provided for in the KU TOS.

You DON’T want to have read the flamin’ Alice Spring’s Vegemite and Honey Shrimp cocktail recipe or the famous Scottish Haggis and Herring Pizza pie before you can even access the next book!! That’s just silly.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:05 AM   #118
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Thanks DT,

I’ve never been one to shy away from a good stoush and I know how to cop it sweet for the first few smacks at least, having been married a couple of times now!

It started out as what I thought was a fairly simple query and people naturally filled in their own blanks, fair enough. I just wanted to know if any of the gurus knew a rough number so I wouldn’t fall foul in future coz Amazon had been struck down mute to my query ….. at the same time letting every one else know that “Unlimited” was really only 3 digits at best. And the rest is now History ……..




If it was really rhetorical, you wouldn’t be wanting an answer but I get your meaning…..

Easy enough. Just do a search of any middle of the road KU subject and you’ll get anything from 2 pages to 400 pages. Many won’t have a review to guide you and when you look in the quick view, if you’re lucky, you’ll get a TOC and a few introductory pages, with the “interesting” stuff being out of range. That’s if the TOC isn’t simply a I, II, III, IV, V with no descriptors. And the crappier titles are just leads to a sales pitch.

The “samples” are usually not much better than teasers at best.

I was looking for specific stuff (it would take a couple of pages to explain - then I’d get even more questions, judgements etc) but needless to say it was shotgun approach stuff, with the help of a local shiraz or 2 to help mellow me, I just pointed and clicked …….

By way of example again let me use recipe books. You want the world’s best burger, pizza, bread, sushi etc, whatever. There’s no way that you could keep the just 10 recipe books allowed on your Kindle “Unlimited” shelf.

So whaddya do? You binge, mark the books that have that interesting Wagyu meat patty, the genuine Neapolitana pizza sauce, that no knead sourdough recipe in it. And you go back to them when you want, just as it is explicitly provided for in the KU TOS.

You DON’T want to have read the flamin’ Alice Spring’s Vegemite and Honey Shrimp cocktail recipe or the famous Scottish Haggis and Herring Pizza pie before you can even access the next book!! That’s just silly.
Kudos for finding amusement in my oxymoron. It left the choice open to you whether you wanted to answer or not. Also my solution is really more suitable for evaluating novel style books. I would expect even clinical non fiction books about ptsd and depression to be written in such a way that a sample would give a fairly good yay or nay decision. If all you get is a table of contents and a foreword, it is useless. Not the sample, but the whole book. Without satisfactory sample and good synopsis chances are much lower to grab a doozie. ETA: To clarify, I meant to say that excluding books that have a sample you are not even willing to finish or a bad synopsis should yield a higher success rate in finding a good book.

KU only works if you can find enough reading material that you are willing to read or listen to that it justifies the cost of subscription. Also the effort to find reading material should not be too high. If you are willing to specifically look in KU to find what you want to read, then it may be for you. Fortunately for Amazon, not everybody that reads a lot is willing to be satisfied with KU. If that was the case, then it wouldn't be as successful as it is. If only above average readers get attracted to it it would fail. Scribd is a good example where they attracted too many above average readers to make them go under from the original plan. IIRC it only took two books on average per month for them to lose money in the beginning when they were practically unlimited.

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Old 05-21-2019, 02:37 PM   #119
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More relevant for the discussion at hand I have a rhetorical question for you. Why would you go through the pain of borrowing 250(*) titles with KU in batches of 10 if you only skimmed to see if they are worth reading at a later time? Couldn't you have simply gotten the samples instead? Or skim the samples with the "look inside" feature?
I can't answer for the O.P., but I can answer for myself. I did a similar thing when I was running a free Kindle Unlimited trial. I wanted to see what they offered, with my ultimate goal being to determine if I wanted to pay for a KU subscription later, when I would actually read the books. I checked out many books, not to the degree that the O.P. did, but probably around 35 per month.

I wanted to be able to review the books at my leisure, which often times meant offline, where the "look inside" feature from Amazon's website is not available.

I ultimately determined that a KU subscription was not for me. But as the result of my reviewing during the free trial, I did read a few books, and purchased a few. They were cheap enough to buy that I actually saved money by buying them instead of renting access to them at $10 per month with a KU membership. When many of these books sell for only $2.99 or so, I can't justify paying $9.99 per month to access them via KU, because I just don't read that fast. In my case, it's cheaper to buy than to rent. That may not be the case for speedy readers though.
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:56 AM   #120
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DT - All very valid points as far as they go. But I would add that “You can’t judge a book by it’s index” - you can quote me on that!
Sometimes the book is indeed rubbish itself but may also “reference” another as a source for some idea. So non fiction or “self help” are vastly different in that respect. Poor authors frequently quote/copy great writers/books.

I couldn’t be bothered going to the beach or a riverbank with a metal detector but some say it’s well worth the trouble. I’m a bit like that with books.

Of course it’s in Amazons interest for you to take ages finding good books and I even venture the temerity to suggest that it may be akin to the intermittent payoff, similar to slot machines.

All the while debiting your account for as long as you remain subscribed, Amazon are also harvesting the data of what subjects and how interested you are in particular titles. I’m already getting targeted full price emails from Amazon based on my downloads so far. And any purchases in that time are pure “value added” profit for them.

It costs them absolutely nothing (ok maybe a few electrons) for me to wade thru their crappy titles to find some good ones.

Seriously - have they no concept of acceptable standards or quality control?
https://www.amazon.com.au/Caribbean-.../dp/B01HOW0JOS
https://www.amazon.com.au/Caribbean-.../dp/B01HNHQS0S

No reviews, no index, no page count - 20% of my limited KU shelf space !!!!

I would seriously doubt that Amazon would be paying this nuff nuff anything just because I was sucker enough to download it. It would have COST Amazon to pay it’s employees to put/keep it up there. So here is a compelling example of why Amazon wouldn’t be paying for page/percentage views. And if they are sending offline reading counts back to base behind my back, I would want to know about that.

So why are those titles there all? Let’s hear some suggestions.

Now if anyone has a genuine rebuttal to the above, do me and everyone reading the courtesy of posting some links and references rather than just taking a quick potshot from the bushes.

haertig - I absolutely agree. I have the time and reasons to sift thru a lot of dross looking for what I need, so I did it with perhaps quite a bit of gusto at the time.

There was earlier in these posts the argument put forward that Amazon had a right to make a profit and of course I know they have shareholders to keep happy as well. And your personal example is a perfect one that speaks to the other side of the coin, your right for value for money.

We all have “shareholder/stakeholders” even if it’s “only” a wife and kids to get on our case for wasting money!

I make no apology for trying to get my hard earned money’s worth either.
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