Sexism/racism etc in older fiction

[TheMadBrewer]

In the 70s I started reading the Perry Mason novels -- and others by E.S. Gardner. Many of them took place in the 30's and 40's and even then I was jarred by some of the expressions and attitudes by characters in the book. But they (mostly) weren't central to the story and were windows into a different time. Some I didn't understand until much later -- characters would ask "Do you have car fare?" and I had no idea what that meant until much later when I learned about LA's old street car system (called "Red Cars").

Sort of the flip side of this, I've recently re-read some SciFi that was written in 50s and 60's that take place in the 2010's (ie "now"). It is fascinating how far off things are -- both in turns of what hasn't happened (growing up, I was always looking forward to taking a vacation on the moon ) but what they missed totally (mostly advances in computing).

You get some of the same things in older movies. I recently watched "White Christmas" (Bing Crosby/Fred Astaire) for the first time in a long while and the portrayal of African Americans was downright embarrassing.

[skb]

I find the casual sexism and racism (especially the racism) difficult to cope with in some books. Is it one of DLS's or Christie's that has the horrible scandal about a clergyman who is...gasp...black? I can remember reading that when I was a teenager and not being able to understand what the issue was (yes, I was so very, very innocent).

I didn't really notice the sexism in books until I'd experienced (in a huge way) once I started working. I remember being aghast reading about Marie Curie - she had to move to France to obtain a degree because she couldn't get one in Poland (I think that's right - it's been years since I read her daughter's book). I remember being outraged for a fictional character in a similar way when she "got a first but, of course, couldn't take a degree" (my emphais). That still rankles and I have no idea why. Hello? Fictional character!

Nowadays, I'll stop reading if the female characters are only present to be either scream, be killed, snogged or bonked and then never mentioned again. For some reason I've become super sensitive to sexism - I've stopped watching some TV shows I'd previously enjoyed because they suddenly made me go all John Cleese ragey at the screen. I find myself applying the Bechdel test. Which is just tiresome for me, but I can't stop!

It was in one of Sayer's books, Strong Poison, that the judge more or less kiboshed Harriet Vane's testimony because she'd lived with a man she wasn't married to. If she lived in sin, apparently she was capable of anything. Ah, the good old days, eh?

I love Sayer's books, especially the Lord Peter's once Harriet turns up but I think the classism, racism and even sexism (e.g. Peter's "Cattery") were of the time. It doesn't make it right, but that's the way it was. The classism still exists to some extent e.g. although officers no longer have batmen, in some cases they do have servants (captains on ships, for example).

Such an interesting topic!

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by skb

I find the casual sexism and racism (especially the racism) difficult to cope with in some books. Is it one of DLS's or Christie's that has the horrible scandal about a clergyman who is...gasp...black? I can remember reading that when I was a teenager and not being able to understand what the issue was (yes, I was so very, very innocent).

Yeah. I love Raymond Chandler, but I do remember in Farewell, My Lovely (I think?) one of the henchmen was a big, hulking (native American) Indian. And for no reason other than that, Marlowe kept mentioning that he smelled bad.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by skb

I find the casual sexism and racism (especially the racism) difficult to cope with in some books. Is it one of DLS's or Christie's that has the horrible scandal about a clergyman who is...gasp...black? I can remember reading that when I was a teenager and not being able to understand what the issue was (yes, I was so very, very innocent).

I didn't really notice the sexism in books until I'd experienced (in a huge way) once I started working. I remember being aghast reading about Marie Curie - she had to move to France to obtain a degree because she couldn't get one in Poland (I think that's right - it's been years since I read her daughter's book). I remember being outraged for a fictional character in a similar way when she "got a first but, of course, couldn't take a degree" (my emphais). That still rankles and I have no idea why. Hello? Fictional character!

Nowadays, I'll stop reading if the female characters are only present to be either scream, be killed, snogged or bonked and then never mentioned again. For some reason I've become super sensitive to sexism - I've stopped watching some TV shows I'd previously enjoyed because they suddenly made me go all John Cleese ragey at the screen. I find myself applying the Bechdel test. Which is just tiresome for me, but I can't stop!

It was in one of Sayer's books, Strong Poison, that the judge more or less kiboshed Harriet Vane's testimony because she'd lived with a man she wasn't married to. If she lived in sin, apparently she was capable of anything. Ah, the good old days, eh?

I love Sayer's books, especially the Lord Peter's once Harriet turns up but I think the classism, racism and even sexism (e.g. Peter's "Cattery") were of the time. It doesn't make it right, but that's the way it was. The classism still exists to some extent e.g. although officers no longer have batmen, in some cases they do have servants (captains on ships, for example).

Such an interesting topic!

You remembered right on Marie Curie.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by MaxLV

So would you (have you) continued reading books like say Charles Dickens Oliver Twist, Little Dorrit, Nicholas Nickleby, etc...

It would depend on how graphic the abuse is. In older books, it's usually not as bad as in many modern books, though there are some exceptions (Thijl Ulenspiegel by Charles De Coster comes to mind, with its extremely graphic medieval torture scenes. I finished it, but I will never reread it again).

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Oh, I don't know about that. I'd say to do so is tons and tons better than those attitudes. No one has suggested such books be burned, banned, or even languish forever unread by all. They're only giving personal opinions on the topic and talking about their own reading habits. There's no need to over-dramatize opinions that differ from your own.

I stop reading a lot of books for a lot of various reasons - trivial or otherwise. It's certainly not censorship to have personal preferences and limits to what fiction you wish to read. Nor to talk about why you dislike some things.

Exactly. I don't have to like or read everything that's ever written. Everyone has a right to personal preferences in their free time activities, otherwise we would already have a 1984 here and now.

Actually there are very few books I have stopped reading because I could not stomach their content. Mostly I stop reading because the book is just not interesting enough for me. And that's perfectly fine. There are far more books written than there are potential readers for them. So you have to choose anyway.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by crich70

Back 100 yrs ago it was normal for there to be seperate water fountains, restrooms, etc. depending on if a person was white or black for example. Today we find the idea to be wrong, but back then it was the norm. Caucasian people probably often didn't think about it and black people had to put up with it.

I was in my 20s before water fountains and restrooms were allowed to all.

I'm not sure it's true that Whites didn't think about it. I thought about it. My father had a Black janitor and he and I had a lot of conversations about that before things began to change. I was always mystified that he would accept things as they were.

This was a guy with a masters degree, I don't recall in what, working as a janitor. I don't recall specifically why. Probably something to do with the subject of his degree but I'm just guessing. I knew back then.

Years before that my dad, who was a flight instructor and managed a flying school, had a black janitor and he wanted to take flying lessons. So my dad made him a deal for lessons to be paid for by washing airplanes and other assorted jobs. He got his license and my Dad used him occasionally to ferry airplanes and that helped him build up time and eventually he got his instructor's rating. However, my dad wasn't willing to let him teach his students so he found other Blacks who wanted to fly and brought them in. Little by little he built up enough students to keep him busy and in time he began to substitute with White students as well.

I was probably about 9 or 10 at the time and I was always working on weekends there and all summer long and I went flying with him a lot. Anyway when we moved to another town my dad suggested the owner make him manager, which he did. A few years later he came to visit. He was the new owner of the school and they still had mostly white students.

This story is worth telling in this discussion because it was such a rare thing. Most Blacks didn't get chances like that and very few Whites were willing to give them, usually out of fear of reprisal from other Whites more than because they were racists. Whites did think about this sort of thing and talk about it among friends, but never openly.

Barry

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by barryem

I was in my 20s before water fountains and restrooms were allowed to all.

I'm not sure it's true that Whites didn't think about it. I thought about it. My father had a Black janitor and he and I had a lot of conversations about that before things began to change. I was always mystified that he would accept things as they were.

This was a guy with a masters degree, I don't recall in what, working as a janitor. I don't recall specifically why. Probably something to do with the subject of his degree but I'm just guessing. I knew back then.

Years before that my dad, who was a flight instructor and managed a flying school, had a black janitor and he wanted to take flying lessons. So my dad made him a deal for lessons to be paid for by washing airplanes and other assorted jobs. He got his license and my Dad used him occasionally to ferry airplanes and that helped him build up time and eventually he got his instructor's rating. However, my dad wasn't willing to let him teach his students so he found other Blacks who wanted to fly and brought them in. Little by little he built up enough students to keep him busy and in time he began to substitute with White students as well.

I was probably about 9 or 10 at the time and I was always working on weekends there and all summer long and I went flying with him a lot. Anyway when we moved to another town my dad suggested the owner make him manager, which he did. A few years later he came to visit. He was the new owner of the school and they still had mostly white students.

This story is worth telling in this discussion because it was such a rare thing. Most Blacks didn't get chances like that and very few Whites were willing to give them, usually out of fear of reprisal from other Whites more than because they were racists. Whites did think about this sort of thing and talk about it among friends, but never openly.

Barry

My great-grandfather owned a service station in east Texas. He had a black guy working for him. Many people were horrified that the black man was allowed to help the oldest grandchild cross the street. That was very rare especially in that neck of the woods.

[GlennD]

Edgar Rice Burroughs is an author that I always struggle with a little bit. The Mucker has Japanese bad guys, and I was amazed at the racism when I read it the first time. I would have almost understood it if it had been written during or immediately after WW2, but it was written in 1913. The Japanese villains are quite one dimensional with lots of references to the "Japs", their yellow skin and eye shape. The Tarzan novels also always seemed pretty condescending to the native African tribes that Tarzan encounters.

I see the racism but to some degree just chalk it up to the era. I don't tend to criticize someone for being in line with the prevailing thought of their time. (Rising above the prevailing thought is noteworthy and commendable though! Many well known historical figures {example, Thomas Jefferson} are progressive in specific areas but in line with their time in others.) It doesn't stop me from continuing to read and enjoy ERB's books.

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Pretty much any fiction written decades or centuries ago will have attitudes that are different from today with regard to women's rights, racism, treatment of gay people, servants, slavery, etc. Does this affect whether you will read a book written 100 or more years ago?

Not at all, I find it very educational.

Originally Posted by 4691mls

However, I'm sure there are plenty of books with much more egregious treatment of a particular race/class/religion/etc. and now I find myself wondering what it would take for me to not read the book.

Have you ever stopped reading a book (or refused to start, based on what you've heard about it) based on such issues?

Hmmm....I had one book that I read when I was about 7 or 8 that involved a gang rape of a man and that was a bit much for me at that age but I remember picking that book up later in my late teens and finishing it off.

As it stands now, probably not but there was another couple of 70s books I read at an early age called the Sensuous Man/Woman. Those were good but I again was a bit young when I read them and I couldn't handle the topic but I finished them both but remember feeling how my brain wasn't quite ready so I put them away until puberty


As it stands now, no. I tend to pride myself on not being easily shocked. There are some subjects I'm not a fan of but there's nothing that I think could shock me.

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Many were no different than slaves as those to whom they were indentured could claim they broke their agreement and have years added on to their servitude.

There were also Irish slaves, without the pretense of being "indentured."

I wonder, did they get their foots cut in half for running away?

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by crich70

Actually the indentured slaves could do something that those from Africa couldn't do. Change their name (after running off ) and blend into society. That's the main reason why African slaves were brought over. They could claim they were not a slave but their skin color didn't change. The indentured slaves on the other hand could, and often did I gather, run off leaving those who had paid their passage with nothing to show for it. After all there were no DNA profiles or I.D. cards back then. You could be Henry Smith one day and Mark Jones the next. Who could say any different? In fiction some have been offended by writers like Mark Twain and the language of his characters but if you remove it then you paint a false picture of history I think.

This.

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I hadn't thought about that. Maybe that's why most of the Irish slaves were sent to West Indie plantations, where most of the native people were dark skinned.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/17/u...aves-myth.html

https://www.snopes.com/irish-slaves-early-america/

https://apnews.com/920e1c738df04555bccd56c09770b36d

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-03-...sh-slaves-myth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth


I hope I've made my point and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to compare "Irish slavery" to the actual history of the American slave trade.

EDIT: I like how far you got with that before anyone checked you.

[Froide]

Originally Posted by sealbeater

I wonder, did they get their foots cut in half for running away?

Quite right. Or have their spouses and children sold away from them? Or have to submit to being made into "breeders"? Or were they forced to "pleasure" the master, his sons, or his guests?

[issybird]

Let's stay on topic, please, with the discussion of class and race in fiction and eschew personal anecdotes and polemics. Thanks.