"Total Pages in Book" Data in Marvin 3 Is Totally Off

[Faterson]

We have touched upon this in other threads, but "total pages in book" calculation is a crucial issue that certainly deserves its own thread, so here it is. Ian Mond (many thanks to him) on Facebook:

https://goo.gl/t0d2Ob

alerted me to something I hadn't noticed before: namely, that the "total pages in book" data in Marvin 3 currently is totally bogus. It's just a random calculation performed by Marvin, and so is – when it comes to many users' (such as mine) expectations – totally useless, really. I never noticed that this was the case; I thought that the imprecision I was observing was due to the malformatting of the particular EPUB files I'm currently reading.

But no – the same anomaly that Ian talks about can be observed in all e-books in Marvin 3: just open any e-book in Marvin 3 on the iPhone and then on the iPad (even the largest, 13-inch iPad Pro!), and Marvin 3 will insist that the book has the same total number of pages on both devices! Sorry, Kris, but that's absurd – so absurd, in fact, that I would prefer if Marvin did not even offer us any "total pages in book" data at all, instead of feeding us such fake data.

Indeed, if we're going for fake pages, then definitely adopt Jon's ADE-style page numbers suggestion instead. In the world of fake electronic pages, ADE is already somewhat of a standard – why invent another, totally arbitrary Marvin pseudo-standard?

The thing I'm interested in, though (and I'm sure many other Marvin users as well), are real pages/screens, which Marvin 3 (and Marvin 2, Marvin 1) does display for chapters. If you can't ensure that the same thing is happening for the "total pages in book" data, Kris, please just forget it and go for ADE instead.

If you open a very long chapter in Marvin on the iPhone and then on the largest iPad, everything is perfect: the chapter may be 75 pages long on the iPhone, and 30 pages on the iPad. But for the entire book, it doesn't work at all – I have James Thurber's Library of America volume (Writings and Drawings), an official e-book purchase, it's over 1,000 pages in print, but Marvin 3 absurdly tells me that the book is exactly 1030 pages long on all 4 of my devices: iPhone, and the 8-inch, 10-inch, and 13-inch iPads. I find that unbearable, Kris – it means that very often, I need to flip several pages on the iPhone in this particular hefty volume, before I see the "total pages left" number go down by even 1. Conversely, on the huge 13-inch iPad Pro screen, I very often see the page number go down by 2, or 3, or even 4 in some cases, after a single page flip! So, what's the use of all this? Just implement ADE instead, if they are to be fake pages...

In contrast, when I open Thurber's most famous story in that volume, "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty", the "pages in chapter" data in Marvin 3 is spot-on:

• 9 pages on the iPhone
• 6 pages on the 8-inch iPad
• 5 pages on the 10-inch iPad
• 3 pages on the 13-inch iPad

Marvin 3 should use this same, device-specific precision when calculating "total pages in book" as well. Otherwise, please just use ADE numbers instead.

Marvin 3 evidently knows how to calculate device-specific "pages"/screens precisely – but it only currently does so on a chapter-by-chapter basis. If you worry, Kris, about that calculation being too resource-hungry when being performed for the entire book by default, perhaps it could only be performed on demand – that is, it might possibly only be performed for those users who choose to have "pages in book" (total/left/or both) displayed in their footer.

And as I mentioned in another thread, these 2 options shouldn't be mutually exclusive: a user like Jon would prefer to see ADE-style page numbers in the footer, while I (and I'm sure many other Marvin users) would opt for "real-life page/screen numbers" instead. Hell, because Marvin 3 will soon allow us to customize our headers and footers, some users might even find it useful to display both page-count styles in their footers simultaneously – ADE pages and "real-life/device-specific" pages. Why not?

[kguil]

Where do I even start?

1) Marvin's page number is not bogus. It is as arbitrary as any other method.
2) Marvin's page numbering is not random. It is deterministic, consistent, and based on an sensible average of 250 words per page.
3) The total pages on iPads/iPhones/Pros being exactly the same *is* the point.
4) If a 'screen' contains more than 250 words then, by definition, it is showing more than one 'page'. Hence when you flip to the next 'screen' the page count may increment by more than one.
5) I prefer my method to ADE.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by kguil

1) Marvin's page number is not bogus.

Sorry, I insist it is bogus.

Originally Posted by kguil

It is as arbitrary as any other method.

Nope – the "pages in chapter" data is not bogus: you flip a page, and the page count goes down by 1, exactly 1, every time you flip the page, regardless of the size of your reading device. That is not bogus (and only this is not bogus), and it's exactly how real-life printed books work.

Originally Posted by kguil

3) The total pages on iPads/iPhones/Pros being exactly the same *is* the point.

And it's definitely the false point, to me. It runs contrary to many users' sensible expectations, I'm sure. And, it's totally inconsistent within Marvin, too: you use real-life page numbers for "pages in chapter", but arbitrary fake numbers for "pages in book"? Could you get any more inconsistent, Kris?

Originally Posted by kguil

4) If a 'screen' contains more than 250 words then, by definition, it is showing more than one 'page'. Hence when you flip to the next 'screen' the page count may increment by more than one.

The height of absurdity, Kris. Sorry, but only a professional programmer/geek (I mean it in a good way, not as a slight) who has lost touch with real-life, non-geek book readers could say that this was in any way smart, logical or expectable. So, Kris, "you flip a single page, and the page count goes down by 2"? That's supposed to be smart software in 2016? Yeah, right!

Originally Posted by kguil

5) I prefer my method to ADE.

Good luck dealing with Jon's objections, then. I fully side with Jon on this – if fake page numbers are to be used at all in Marvin, definitely go for ADE-style, which already enjoys some support across various platforms, as Jon explained.

As always, I hope you will reconsider your position on this, Kris. Otherwise, I will need to borrow Jon's phrase, that this will be (another) major flaw in Marvin that will "drag it down the toilet".

[kguil]

May kindly I ask you to tone down on the use of emojis in your posts? Together with your epic-length posts and insolence, things are getting a bit hard to parse.

[Faterson]

I went out of the way to be extremely polite in both of my messages above, so I don't get where you see "insolence". As to smilies, they are needed precisely because the posts tend to be long sometimes – smilies are, then, needed to assist the reader in consuming the long stretches of text.

Also, it's very easy to be succinct if one is superficial. For an in-depth discussion of fundamental software issues such as this one, page counts, longer posts are needed. If in-depth discussion of issues is prohibited, the inevitable result is inferior software...

[democrite]

I haven't see the beta, but sounds sensible to me. As far as I can tell, the options are:

1. Use ADE page-map, Daisy, or ePub 3, if it's defined to match print page numbers. If that's not already in there, it'll likely get added.

2. Determine some arbitrary length like what Kris has done. Since it's not ADE, using ADE's determination is either quite difficult or not possible. Besides that, either go by number of screens, with each being a different page, or pick some length to mimic an "average" page size, with that having the benefit of the #'s being the same on all devices, so it's easy to move between. Seems like a good choice.

[Faterson]

Democrite, we're talking about the current Marvin 3 regular release here, no beta.

You're really talking about 3 scenarios in your post, and the middle one (Kris's current solution) I really find superfluous. Jon is spot-on in that regard. Why reinvent the wheel? The "ADE page numbers" wheel already exists, doesn't it? And it is transferable to non-ADE e-reader software, as I'm sure Jon will gladly confirm to you based on his use of ADE page numbering on various platforms.

But there is really no need for Marvin to invent a fully arbitrary page numbering scheme all of its own. Why? Well, because we now have this marvelously precise iCloud reading location syncing, right? When it's just about Marvin, all you need to do is press the button, and there you are – exactly where you wish to be. No need to look at page numbers at all. The page numbers for manual reading locations syncing only make sense when you're talking about cross-platform syncing (outside of Marvin and outside its own arbitrary page numbering), and that is all the more reason to adopt an already existing cross-platform solution like the ADE (fake) page numbering.

However, to me (and I'm sure many other Marvin users), the main use (that I would list under #1) would definitely be the one you only alluded to in passing: what's the most natural question a book reader has as he or she is reading a book? Why, it's "How many pages do I still have to go (how many more pages do I need to flip) in this exciting/boring book?" Or, "Which page in this book am I on?" And no, it does not make sense, unlike what Kris claims, to flip 3 pages on the iPhone, without seeing the "page number" change at all, or to flip a single page on the 13-inch iPad, and see the "page number" drop by 3 all of a sudden. That's for geeks, but not for your regular book readers.

[ichbindasauge]

Originally Posted by Faterson

I went out of the way to be extremely polite in both of my messages above, ...

Words like "bogus", "height of absurdity", "major flaw, "absurd, "unbearable", "hell" and some of the other expressions and smilies you are using, are not what I would call "extremely polite"...

[democrite]

It'd be much easier to follow if he just said what he meant. Might I suggest something such as: "Kris, consult me on everything. You are not allowed to make choices I do not like."

[pwalker8]

I guess if you really don't like it, then you should try writing your own. Frankly, you have been pretty rude and insulting to pretty much anyone who doesn't instantly agree with your every demand. Would you go up to a mother and tell her that her baby is the ugliest baby you have ever seen because it has blond hair and you think that black hair looks better?

As a developer myself, I can tell you that demeaning something that the developer put months of effect into is never appreciated. I can also say that once a program is written, frequently it's very difficult to change how something works. People seem to think that it works like it does in the movies where someone types for 5 minutes and it's done. It rarely works that way. Some changes are easier than others and sometimes the developer just likes it the way it is. He wrote it, it's his decision. I would suggest making your suggestions without the hyperbole and bombastics and then let it go.

[kguil]

@demo Actually implementing ADE page numbering is simpler than what I did. However, with the exception of compatibility with other reading systems (which I admit is a fair, albeit specialised, use case), I find it to be less meaningful. In the absence of page maps (that many EPUBs do not have) ADE defines a page as 1024 characters. In my better judgment, people tend to connect more with "a page is roughly 250 words" than "a page is 1024 letters, digits, white space, and symbols".

Now, and I haven't put too much thought in this yet, I am considering an option to let readers choose their own basis for "words per page". For instance, you might rather define a page as having 350 words than accept my default of 250. This may have benefit of being able to align page numbering with external systems such as Goodreads (which is incidentally the intention of the Facebook poster that inspired this thread).

[JKenP]

To me it makes as much sense to ignore page counts and show percentages. I'd much rather know I have read 10% of the book. That could be byte based. Illustrations and whatever my corrupt it a bit but what the hey; it at least has a bit more meaning for most ebooks.

[Kai Winters]

Wow, seems to me to be a tempest in a teapot.
The rudeness and forcing one's "opinion" down our throats as expertise is rather disgusting and I've blocked the poster...Disagreement is one thing and voicing one's disagreements is fine as long, in my opinion and most reasonable people's, as it is respectful.

I love to read and have for 55 years. My current best reader is my iphone6+ because I only carry one mobile device that does everything I want.

Frankly I don't care what method is used as long as I am able to see where I am and where I've left off in the book I'm currently reading...or books in some cases.
I've seen percentages but generally page numbering systems and have had no problems with any of them. I am generally a "pleasure reader" thus have no experience with moving back and forth between formats, etc. I start a book and finish it before starting another.

Currently I'm using Apple's iBooks, Kindle and Marvin...to check out all the hoopla...I have the free version and find it easy to use and as good as any other out there. I have no favorites and have used nearly every reader system available including some that were awesome but so glitchy and failure prone I got rid of them quickly.

I find Marvin to be a good reader, adaptable and easy to use.
Thank you for offering this system.

[dwig]

Originally Posted by JKenP

To me it makes as much sense to ignore page counts and show percentages. I'd much rather know I have read 10% of the book. ...

+1

When a reading device/app displays any form of page count (its own proprietary method, ADE clone, or simply "screens" at the current display config) it isn't giving me the information that I usually want. It is extremely rare that I need to manually sync my position with another reader/app that uses identical pagination.

I use this info to get a feel of where I am in the book. If percentage is displayed, preferable with a progress bar, I get the desired info directly. If a numeric page position is given, I have to do the math comparing my position with the total (hopefully that is also displayed!).

There are no true pages in ebooks, period. Any reference to pages is either a faux "page", a screen count, or a reference to one specific print edition. In a perfect world, a reader/app would give the user a choice in prefs to choose between percentage, this app's legacy paging, ADE compliant paging, a custom word or character per page option along, a reference to a specific print edition if one exists, and perhaps a Kindle-like Location value along with options for how and when this info is displayed. This isn't a perfect world so you choose your reader/app and live with its progress information.

[ShellShock]

Originally Posted by Faterson

We have touched upon this in other threads, but "total pages in book" calculation is a crucial issue that certainly deserves its own thread, so here it is. Ian Mond (many thanks to him) on Facebook:

https://goo.gl/t0d2Ob

alerted me to something I hadn't noticed before: namely, that the "total pages in book" data in Marvin 3 currently is totally bogus.

So this is a "crucial issue" but someone else had to point it out to you? How do you justify kicking up such a big fuss over something that you were totally oblivious to?