Source of fonts for embedding in free ePubs

[ahi]

Originally Posted by frabjous

I certainly understand the technical difference involved, but not everyone who might use them in this way (especially with helper software) would.

If they're going to advertise the sales of these fonts with the claim that they allow embedding in documents, and not clarify exactly what they mean, it's certainly would fall under fair use for someone to include them in an ePub. What the word "embedding" suggests to someone who understands the technical details doesn't seem like the important thing, but rather what it would suggest to any arbitrary customer. It's false advertising otherwise.

Including in an ePub may be technically more like distributing, but it's conceptually more like embedding, and I think, without further clarification or detailed wording, that's what would be more important legally.

... I don't know. What they do say is clear enough for professionals who are generally the ones to have to worry about such things, and it's clear enough also what would qualify as corner cases (the ePub "embedding"... maybe).

You are right. The wording is prone to be misunderstood by the "average person"--but ignorance of the law is no excuse, it's well known that certain words have more narrow meanings in technical/professional fields, and so on and so forth. I'd be shocked if this was perceived by any judge to be a case of false advertising.

- Ahi

[frabjous]

We're not talking about ignorance of the law, as with a criminal case. We're talking about how a certain clause in a license, a kind of civil contract I suppose, would naturally be read. I'd be shocked if a judge didn't take pointing to this clause (and the lack of further explanation) as granting permission for any form of "embedding", so long as using that font in that document alone is the intention of the action. Ignorance of the law may not be excuse, but being misled by a poorly written contract certainly might be grounds for dismissing a civil case.

Of course, unless we have a case of the most litigious bastards in the world, a company like this should certainly simply ask someone to remove their font from a file before threatening legal action -- after all, we're talking about non-commercial, non-for-profit epubs here... almost none of which are going to be made by professionals. The clause already prohibits commercial use.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by frabjous

We're not talking about ignorance of the law, as with a criminal case. We're talking about how a certain clause in a license, a kind of civil contract I suppose, would naturally be read. I'd be shocked if a judge didn't take pointing to this clause (and the lack of further explanation) as granting permission for any form of "embedding", so long as using that font in that document alone is the intention of the action. Ignorance of the law may not be excuse, but being misled by a poorly written contract certainly might be grounds for dismissing a civil case.

Of course, unless we have a case of the most litigious bastards in the world, a company like this should certainly simply ask someone to remove their font from a file before threatening legal action -- after all, we're talking about non-commercial, non-for-profit epubs here... almost none of which are going to be made by professionals. The clause already prohibits commercial use.

Despite your making a reasonable argument... I remain of the opinion that if there is anything wrong at all in this whole thing, it's the calling of any way of font inclusion in ePub "embedding". It's about as accurate as the unceasing professions of it being "the industry standard".

- Ahi

[frabjous]

I agree that it shouldn't be called that. I just wouldn't blame a non-technically minded non-professional who thought that's what it was!

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by frabjous

I agree that it shouldn't be called that. I just wouldn't blame a non-technically minded non-professional who thought that's what it was!

Especially since the ePUB spec calls them "Embedded Fonts".

[pdurrant]

Just a quick comment to update the thread on progress.

I've been in contact with Bill Davis of fontmarketplace.com, who was kind enough to check the output from his copy of Indesign CS4, which it turns out does encrypt the fonts it embeds, although not using the IDPF encryption.

I haven't found any tools that I can easily use to just encrypt the fonts in an ePub, so I'm writing my own python script to do it. Goodness - python's fun! I'm currently to the stage where I have my encryption key and a list of fonts in the ePub, and now 'all' I have to do is write out the ePub with the amended fonts and an added encryption.xml file...

I hope to hear from Mr Davis 'soon' as to whether their licence is intended to cover fonts embedded in ePubs with encryption, but he may be waiting to see some samples with actual IDPF encryption.

And now I'm off back to the splendid IDLE python development environment.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I've been in contact with Bill Davis of fontmarketplace.com, who was kind enough to check the output from his copy of Indesign CS4, which it turns out does encrypt the fonts it embeds, although not using the IDPF encryption.

I haven't found any tools that I can easily use to just encrypt the fonts in an ePub, so I'm writing my own python script to do it. Goodness - python's fun! I'm currently to the stage where I have my encryption key and a list of fonts in the ePub, and now 'all' I have to do is write out the ePub with the amended fonts and an added encryption.xml file...

I wonder if InDesign's encryption is any different than what is described in this technical note.

[pdurrant]

Yes, looking at the output from Indsign CS4, that's the algorithm used.. I see it's different to the IDPF one, which takes the UUID but then performs a SHA1 on it to get a 20 byte key (instead of just taking the first 16 bytes), and XORs the first 1040 bytes (not the first 1024 bytes).

I suppose the question is whether ADE can read the IDPF encyption or not. If not, I'll be able to switch my font mangler to the Adobe version easily.

The IDPF way is neater, but I'm not sure it was worth changing Adobe's suggestion.

Originally Posted by Ankh

I wonder if InDesign's encryption is any different than what is described in this technical note.

[pdurrant]

I've now heard back from Font Marketplace. They say that if the font is embedded in the ePub using font obfuscation, that's good enough for them. They'll have some official wording on the subject, which I will post here when it's available.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Be careful with this. The licence permits fonts to be embedded. Fonts in ePub files are not embedded, as they are with the PDF file, but are simply contained in the ePub ZIP file, from where they can simply be copied by the user and installed on their own system. The point about an embedded font is that it becomes a part of the document, and cannot be "unpacked" and re-used by the document viewer.

I honestly don't think the licence you've quoted is valid for ePub usage.

[darkpoet]

LOL at this whole thread. The conclusion is simply to use freeware fonts that leave no ambiguity... redistributable, embeddable.

[link removed] I use a bunch of Manfred Klein's which I believe are the same...

[Peter Sorotokin]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I've been in contact with Bill Davis of fontmarketplace.com, who was kind enough to check the output from his copy of Indesign CS4, which it turns out does encrypt the fonts it embeds, although not using the IDPF encryption.

Yes, InDesign is using Adobe algorithm which predates IDPF. It is described here: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/digitalp...protection.pdf

I haven't found any tools that I can easily use to just encrypt the fonts in an ePub, so I'm writing my own python script to do it. Goodness - python's fun! I'm currently to the stage where I have my encryption key and a list of fonts in the ePub, and now 'all' I have to do is write out the ePub with the amended fonts and an added encryption.xml file....

EPubGen (http://code.google.com/p/epub-tools/wiki/EPUBGen, written in Java) can subset and encrypt/obfuscate most OpenType and TrueType fonts using both IDPF and Adobe algorithms. Only Adobe algorithm is supported in the field as far as I know, IDPF algorithm will be implemented as well.

I think doing both subsetting and obfuscation puts it quite firmly on the embedding side of the fence.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by darkpoet

LOL at this whole thread. The conclusion is simply to use freeware fonts that leave no ambiguity

That only works if the font you want is available as a freeware and redistributable font (NOT the same thing).

If you can find me a free/redistributable Baskerville Italic that matches the Monotype Baskerville Italic here:

http://www.fonts.com/FindFonts/Detail.htm?pid=205240

(Note especially the uppercase J, K, N, T, Y and Z and lowercase p, w)

I'd be very pleased indeed!

[darkpoet]

I'm almost sorry to bump a dead thread but I think it's important to note that Larabie doesn't allow embedded fonts - he specifically says that his license disallows linking/embedding via the HTML/CSS @fontface when it involves an unencrypted TTF file... which is exactly what ePub does... unless you've DRM'd the file.

Manfred Klein rocks. Just donate some money to Doctors Without Borders. Typooasis hosts many of his free fonts and has a huge archive of other free fonts. Dieter Steffmann is interesting.

pdurrant: the likelihood of finding a "free" font that so closely resembles MT Baskerville is small. I wish you luck but when I searched for a free version of Parchment MF, I discovered they are all plagiarized ripoffs with minor changes. I couldn't (in good conscience) use them. This is one reason I've gone dormant. I was creating a 20-font ePub and ended-up having to replace most of my choices (twice in some cases) due to possible violation of terms of use. I ended up with 3/4 being MK fonts. God bless the man.

[frabjous]

As long as this thread is being resurrected, it might be worth putting a plug in for the wonderful fontsquirrel -- which lists hundreds of fonts which are free to use and embed, even for commerical use.

(A similar site, but less easy to download from, is kernest.)

[bobcdy]

Another free font site is
www.fonts101.com

I don't know anything about its legality, but it advertises hundreds of free fonts that I believe must be ok for epub 'embedding' if the site is legally distributing the fonts.

There is another source of many non-copyrighted fonts, Southern Software, Inc.

Can anyone clarify the legality of using fonts for epubs from these two sites?