Neil Gaiman (criminally) sexual deviant?

[ZodWallop]

I don't have an opinion on the Gaiman situation. As a comics reader, I'm very familiar with his work, though I've read very little of it. (I was one of like three people that bought the first seven issues of Sandman before deciding it just wasn't for me.)

But Amazon's handling of Good Omens is just so spineless. They should have either pushed ahead with season three, as Gaiman's already been paid and written the scripts. Or they should have stood on their principles and skipped it altogether.

The way they've gone, Gaiman gets paid for doing less work.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Critteranne

Of course, most characters in fantasy stories are people. (Even in a talking animal story like Redwall books, they are relatable as people.) These stories have many aspects that are based on humanity and not the fantasy elements. Neil Gaiman's Death was based on an actual person. Dream was probably based in part of Gaiman himself.

Most people didn't see themselves in Odin. They saw themselves in some of the first positive portrayals of Goth subculture. (And that's just one aspect.) Or in the portrayals of other subcultures.

Many great writers are assholes. Gaiman could suck and still be genuine. I'm sure Dream is in some part based on Gaiman. You don't have to be a good person to be a good writer.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Many great writers are assholes. Gaiman could suck and still be genuine. I'm sure Dream is in some part based on Gaiman. You don't have to be a good person to be a good writer.

Exactly, and so are many great actors, painters, composers, musicians etc. etc. They're human, not saints or angels. Humans can and do pretty terrible things. Even humans you admire or love.

Of course, if you want to enjoy only art produced by decent persons, that's your choice. But be prepared for disappointment.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

You don't have to be a good person to be a good writer.

Marion Zimmer Bradley proved that to be true.

[DNSB]

One difference in my eyes is that MZB admitted in multiple depositions that she actively aided and abetted her husband, Walter Breen, in the sexual abuse and molestation of children. She was never convicted of any crimes relating to her daughter or other children so on that topic, I remain neutral though leaning heavily towards Moira Greyland being truthful.

For more information, see DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98 & DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98 for the text of the first two depositions.

So far, Neil Gaiman has not admitted to having committed any wrongs.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DNSB

One difference in my eyes is that MZB admitted in multiple depositions that she actively aided and abetted her husband, Walter Breen, in the sexual abuse and molestation of children. She was never convicted of any crimes relating to her daughter or other children so on that topic, I remain neutral though leaning heavily towards Moira Greyland being truthful.

For more information, see DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY - 8/10/98 & DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98 for the text of the first two depositions.

So far, Neil Gaiman has not admitted to having committed any wrongs.

For me it doesn't matter as far as consuming any content produced by the person is concerned - I'd still do it if I were interested. It does influence my opinion of the person, of course. But for me the two are not the same.

Did I lose most of my respect for Bradley as a person, after her true character was revealed? Yes, of course. Would I still read her books? Yes, and I have.

[DNSB]

The major issue for me is that several of MZB's books have scenes of sexual exploitation of children in them. When I originally read them, I felt that from what I knew of history, the eras in which the books were set did have sexual exploitation of children so simply true to the historical settings. Looking at some of those scenes in light of have lived a few more decades and having read about her beliefs, I find it much harder to accept them as now I tend to find myself reading them as thinly disguised moralization of pedophilia.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The major issue for me is that several of MZB's books have scenes of sexual exploitation of children in them. When I originally read them, I felt that from what I knew of history, the eras in which the books were set did have sexual exploitation of children so simply true to the historical settings. Looking at some of those scenes in light of have lived a few more decades and having read about her beliefs, I find it much harder to accept them as now I tend to find myself reading them as thinly disguised moralization of pedophilia.

Yeah, I'm aware of those scenes and I definitely agree with you there. But this is a relatively minor part of her writing. And of course, given the setting, sexual abuse of children would almost certainly exist there, no matter MZB's personal views on the matter. But yeah, she was a bit too much of an apologist in this.

MZB is not and has never been one of my favorite writers. I've read a few of her books both before and after the revelations about her personal life. I'm not sure if I'm going to read any more, as I don't like her writing that much, and there are far too many other books to read. But neither am I saying I'll never read her again. I might.

[DNSB]

I was looking back and realized that the first of MZB's books I remember reading were The Planet Savers/The Sword of Aldones in an Ace double and The Bloody Sun back when they were first published. A lot of years and words have gone by since then.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I was looking back and realized that the first of MZB's books I remember reading were The Planet Savers/The Sword of Aldones in an Ace double and The Bloody Sun back when they were first published. A lot of years and words have gone by since then.

For me it was The Heritage of Hastur, and it was not so long ago, 20 years or so. Of course the very book with a pedophile as one of the characters. I remember MZB's attitude seemed slightly strange to me even back then (after all, I was in my thirties, not a naive teenager), but thought nothing much of it until I learned about her husband etc.

[maddz]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

For me it was The Heritage of Hastur, and it was not so long ago, 20 years or so. Of course the very book with a pedophile as one of the characters. I remember MZB's attitude seemed slightly strange to me even back then (after all, I was in my thirties, not a naive teenager), but thought nothing much of it until I learned about her husband etc.

For me it was (at least some of) the Darkover series, which have been culled from my library many years ago as I just didn't care for them at all. I will admit to having print copies of The Firebrand and The Mists of Avalon, plus some anthologies edited by her. I liked both books (The Firebrand not as much) enough to keep, but I doubt I will ever replace them as ebooks.

[Deskisamess]

Originally Posted by DNSB

So far, Neil Gaiman has not admitted to having committed any wrongs.

Narcissists rarely believe they are wrong, regardless of what they may have actually done.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Narcissists rarely believe they are wrong, regardless of what they may have actually done.

Out of curiosity, what are your qualifications to issue a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder? How often did you sit down with Neil Gaiman to talk about his life and interactions with others?

[foosion]

I tend to separate the art and the artist. Neil appears to be a horrible person, at least based on published reports. Does that mean I should not read and enjoy his books or feel bad about liking some of them?

[Dazrin]

He has some very good books. I don't think it's wrong for anyone to enjoy them. I really like The Graveyard Book and Good Omens. I've only read a couple others though and I didn't enjoy them much.

I will not support him further though. That is the line for me. Giving him financial support by purchasing things is too much. Even if he hasn't gotten past the advance. At this point, if you don't have something of his that you enjoy, maybe get the book from the library instead of purchasing it. Or get it second-hand. From the library, paper copies might be preferable for that given the awful limited licensing deals they have to endure for most ebooks.