DRM, DeDRM, and ebook formats

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by issybird

Amazon has toughened its language at the point of sale regarding buying only a license and rewrote its Kindle Store Terms of Use on December 31, 2024.

Oh, I shall take a look at that. It sounds like it might be disappointing.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Quoth

There are various reasons that some customers even on more modern and current devices don't use wifi, that are nothing to do with DRM removal.

The biggest reason is likely a desire for privacy. But that goes directly against Amazon's desire to know what you are reading so that they can use that for marketing purposes. If that is a problem then a Kindle is not the best reading device for you.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Oh, I shall take a look at that. It sounds like it might be disappointing.

It looks pretty similar to me. I have just checked with Amazon Customer Service that their reply from 2012 still applies. It does.

Ref: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=71

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Quoth

There are various reasons that some customers even on more modern and current devices don't use wifi, that are nothing to do with DRM removal.

True, but that's not Amazon's problem. What is their problem -- maybe -- is devices which don't have WiFi at all and can only load books via USB. There's been a lot of bad publicity the past few years around manufacturers bricking legacy devices. Does Amazon want Kindle to be the next Sonos or Moxie? I dunnow.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by issybird

My opinion is that Amazon discharged its obligations (to the extent it had any) to those with WiFi-less devices with its very generous upgrade offer when it eliminated store access to devices up through the Kindle Keyboard. No device lasts forever or is supported forever. I can't imagine that those customers who are holding out with ancient tech are a profit source.

Some people forget that those with whispersync devices did NOT need any internet service to buy or get books (once an account was set up) from almost ANYPLACE. Back then, there 'roaming WiFi' was not common.
Also they let people USE TREIR SERVICE to email PRIVATE Documents (non-Amazon purchases)
This was a brilliant initial marketing plan. (FWIW Tesla did it with their Supercharger network. No need for a 3rd party to install chargers, Buy and there are places you can charge)

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I can strip the DRM from eBooks downloaded to my Kindle Touch because it does not handle KFX.

I wonder if Amazon will try to close this loophole by basically saying "we will only send KFX to Kindle devices", and then offering steep (60-80%) upgrade discounts to people with older Kindles that complain.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

I wonder if Amazon will try to close this loophole by basically saying "we will only send KFX to Kindle devices", and then offering steep (60-80%) upgrade discounts to people with older Kindles that complain.

I highly doubt it. I should not have to be forced to get a Kindle I don't want. I don't like the 2024 Kindles not do I want one. Now if Amazon was willing to send everyone who has a non-KFX Kindle a free Kindle PW6, then I can see working.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

I wonder if Amazon will try to close this loophole by basically saying "we will only send KFX to Kindle devices", and then offering steep (60-80%) upgrade discounts to people with older Kindles that complain.

It is now ten years since KFX was introduced. There continue to be books delivered in older formats to even the latest Kindle devices. For some reason Amazon has not yet completely replicated all of the functionality of older formats within KFX.

Personally I believe that Download & Transfer will be going away within the next year or so but that direct delivery of books to older Kindle devices will continue for a lot longer.

[Sirtel]

The problem with those old Kindles is that the books delivered to them have very low-res images (maps in many novels, for example).

[issybird]

I think ten years is a good-enough working proxy for "the device owes you nothing". At least it's the one I used in the past year when both my Fitbit Zip and my Aerb waterproof MP3 player died. So in light of that, I don't see why Amazon shouldn't go to a KFX only model. Given history, I'd expect Amazon to add a sweetener in terms of a nice deal on current Kindles for those who own and use moribund devices. I'm no Amazon apologist (unlike most in this thread, I haven't bought a Kindle book since November, 2023), but that would seem like more than ample compensation.

ETA: I'm with @jhowell in thinking D&T will go, but that direct downloads to legacy devices won't (not yet), but I don't think there's a great injustice in either scenario.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by issybird

ETA: I'm with @jhowell in thinking D&T will go, but that direct downloads to legacy devices won't (not yet), but I don't think there's a great injustice in either scenario.

I think you (and jhowell) have it backwards:

Direct downloads to legacy (Whispernet) Kindles was killed off in 2021 ahead of the 3G network shutdowns in early 2022. There have been no direct downloads to these devices for 3+ years now, leaving D&T the only way to get Kindle books loaded on them.

I believe D&T will not go until Amazon decide that they no longer want the free money these devices generate. By "free" I mean that these legacy devices cost Amazon nothing to support, so any money people spend on Kindle books for these old devices is almost pure profit.

I could be wrong, but I simply don't see Amazon cutting off a revenue source, nor do I see them choosing a PR disaster after what Sonos did.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I think you (and jhowell) have it backwards:

Direct downloads to legacy (Whispernet) Kindles was killed off in 2021 ahead of the 3G network shutdowns in early 2022. There have been no direct downloads to these devices for 3+ years now, leaving D&T the only way to get Kindle books loaded on them.

I believe D&T will not go until Amazon decide that they no longer want the free money these devices generate. By "free" I mean that these legacy devices cost Amazon nothing to support, so any money people spend on Kindle books for these old devices is almost pure profit.

I could be wrong, but I simply don't see Amazon cutting off a revenue source, nor do I see them choosing a PR disaster after what Sonos did.

As I said earlier, they could also leave D&T in place for non-wifi-capable Kindles, and remove it for all the others.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The problem with those old Kindles is that the books delivered to them have very low-res images (maps in many novels, for example).

I did buy a book recently from Amazon and while it's not a books full of graphics, I did notice that the graphics it has are lower resolution (icons for social media, the author's picture, cover, etc) then similar graphics in ePub versions of the books in the series and this one is the latest version.

The reason I got it from Amazon was because I had some Amazon credit to spend and it's a novella.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I believe D&T will not go until Amazon decide that they no longer want the free money these devices generate. By "free" I mean that these legacy devices cost Amazon nothing to support, so any money people spend on Kindle books for these old devices is almost pure profit.

Amazon is missing out on the usage information that they can gather from devices that connect regularly. They may consider that to be a cost. After all they do not allow the downloading of books unless you have a registered Kindle, which they could certainly do if they only cared about maximizing e-book sales.

Because they can no longer connect, Amazon has no way to know which ones now exist only as serial numbers registered solely to allow the use of Download & Transfer to extract books from Amazon's ecosystem. I suspect those are the majority.

Originally Posted by ratinox

I could be wrong, but I simply don't see Amazon cutting off a revenue source, nor do I see them choosing a PR disaster after what Sonos did.

I believe that offering a substantial discount for upgrading to newer and better technology more than offsets the negative publicity in discontinuing support for 15+ year old devices. But I could also be wrong.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Because they can no longer connect, Amazon has no way to know which ones now exist only as serial numbers registered solely to allow the use of Download & Transfer to extract books from Amazon's ecosystem. I suspect those are the majority.

You are correct, but does it matter? I think it doesn't matter much. J. Random Shareholder doesn't care if my Kindle DX is being used to read books or if its just a placeholder for purchases and downloads and DRM-stripping. They care about their stock dividends, and they care about actions which could (will) reduce those dividends.

Amazon could offer some kind of discount or rebate to us legacy device owners to get us to "upgrade". I can see Amazon not doing this for several reasons. Selling these devices at a loss is a hit to the bottom line which share holders don't want. Not all of us legacy device owners will take that action (I wouldn't trade my DX for a new Paperwhite at any price) which is a long-term customer loss which is another hit to the bottom line. Are Amazon willing to take these hits? D&T will stick around until the answer to this question is "yes".

All of this is tempered by the publishers. They could try to pressure Amazon into trying to pressure us in ways that make DRM-stripping more difficult, but it still ends up being a question of profits: are the publishers willing to take the hits to their bottom lines? I don't know. Big Content are inconsistent about whether greed or control is their higher priority.