DRM, DeDRM, and ebook formats - Page 2

Quoth · 01-11-2025, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That would be 2000. Microsoft Lit was the precursor to ePub2.

No, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_eBook OEBPS = essentially epub1 1998. There was even a dedicated (LCD based) ereader.

Microsoft LIT files for Microsoft Reader are simply an extension of the CHM file format, and thus use LZX compression, but with DRM.

More here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Reader

The LIT format was / is proprietary. The OEBPS (really epub1) was open sourced before LIT existed. LIT was maybe better than mobi as a format (but I'm not sure), but it was a proprietary disaster.

There is no relationship between epub, LIT and mobi other than they all used HTML in some fashion and were for ebooks.

The epub2 is directly developed from OEBPS, though there is no actual epub1.

Sadly the Web standard people took over epub2.

JSWolf · 01-11-2025, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

No, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_eBook OEBPS = essentially epub1 1998. There was even a dedicated (LCD based) ereader.

Microsoft LIT files for Microsoft Reader are simply an extension of the CHM file format, and thus use LZX compression, but with DRM.

More here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Reader

The LIT format was / is proprietary. The OEBPS (really epub1) was open sourced before LIT existed. LIT was maybe better than mobi as a format (but I'm not sure), but it was a proprietary disaster.

There is no relationship between epub, LIT and mobi other than they all used HTML in some fashion and were for ebooks.

The epub2 is directly developed from OEBPS, though there is no actual epub1.

Sadly the Web standard people took over epub2.

Lit was not a disaster. Lit was actually pretty good back then. It was ePub before ePub. You cannot just take Lit as is and put the files in an ePub container. There are some changes that have to be made for it to work as ePub. It's been so long since I've converted Lit that I do not remember what needs to changed.

The only thing proprietary to Lit was the DRM and the container.

Quoth · 01-11-2025, 01:58 PM

OEBPS (really epub1) was open sourced before LIT existed. Epub2 is directly developed from OEBPS, and also open.

And Microsoft orphaned LIT. That was the disaster. It was more similar to the idea (proprietary "compiled" binary file, not just compressed) to KFX. It has no connection to EPUB and didn't properly support all languages anyway. LIT was based off totally proprietary CHM (MS Compiled HTML Help).

PeterT · 01-11-2025, 02:55 PM

Fascinating as all this is maybe the time has come for y'all to head over to the Lounge and create a New Version of DRM tool discussion thread and move these discussions there.

Sent from my Pixel 7a using Tapatalk

DNSB · 01-11-2025, 03:05 PM

This thread has wandered so far off topic, we may need Stanley to locate the topic.

I tend to agree that a new thread would be a great idea. Perhaps an administrator might move the last batch of off topic messages to a new thread in General Discussion subforum or the Lounge subforum, Something like "DRM? Is it actually evil?" in General Discussions?

pdurrant · 01-11-2025, 03:53 PM

A new thread, as requested.

JSWolf · 01-11-2025, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hobnail

Even though he's not computer savvy he uses his phone all the time for work. I'm thinking that maybe I could suggest he install Overdrive and see how that goes. He's an avid reader and I think he said he gets a lot of books from the library.

That would not be Overdrive. That would be Libby he'd install.

Your friend can also buy ePub from Kobo, eBooks.com, and Google Play Books, Smashwords, Baen, and as well as direct from some of the publishers.

John F · 01-12-2025, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hobnail

Agreed. Even if the KFX thing wasn't an issue I was thinking that for him, installing Kindle for PC and the subsequent steps is probably more than he'd be able to do.

Although there are extra steps going the Kindle for PC route, they don't look that much different to me.

EPub:

Install ADE (or some calibre plugin)
install calibre
install the DRM tools
Import the EPub
Convert it

Kindle for PC:

Install an old version of Kindle for PC
Do a little on the PC to prevent updates for Kindle for PC
Install the DRM tools
Install the KFX plugin
Import the Kindle ebook
Convert it

Yes, a couple of extra steps, but with a helpful friend, not too burdensome.

My be worth the effort if the OP wants the freebies from Amazon.

JSWolf · 01-12-2025, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F

Although there are extra steps going the Kindle for PC route, they don't look that much different to me.

EPub:

Install ADE (or some calibre plugin)
install calibre
install the DRM tools
Import the EPub
Convert it

Kindle for PC:

Install an old version of Kindle for PC
Do a little on the PC to prevent updates for Kindle for PC
Install the DRM tools
Install the KFX plugin
Import the Kindle ebook
Convert it

Yes, a couple of extra steps, but with a helpful friend, not too burdensome.

My be worth the effort if the OP wants the freebies from Amazon.

But what happens when the an old version of KindleforPC no longer works like on MacOS?

John F · 01-12-2025, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But what happens when the an old version of KindleforPC no longer works like on MacOS?

Depends on one's preferences.

JSWolf · 01-12-2025, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F

Depends on one's preferences.

I should have added if you don't have a Kindle registered (earlier then 2024).

John F · 01-12-2025, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I should have added if you don't have a Kindle registered (earlier then 2024).

Purchase an older Kindle.

Maybe Kindle on MAC will work by then. Or Kindle for Android will be cracked. Or Kindle for IOS. Or the Android emulator. Maybe DRM will no longer be on ebooks (like MP3s).

Maybe wait a little while to see if the new DRM gets cracked.

Maybe my attitude about stripping DRM will change.

I would cross that bridge when I get to it.

If I wanted Kindle exclusives now, I see no reason for me to cut off my nose to spite my face.

YMMV. Your guesses as to what may happen in the future may vary.

JSWolf · 01-12-2025, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F

Purchase an older Kindle.

Maybe Kindle on MAC will work by then. Or Kindle for Android will be cracked. Or Kindle for IOS. Or the Android emulator. Maybe DRM will no longer be on ebooks (like MP3s).

Maybe wait a little while to see if the new DRM gets cracked.

Maybe my attitude about stripping DRM will change.

I would cross that bridge when I get to it.

If I wanted Kindle exclusives now, I see no reason for me to cut off my nose to spite my face.

YMMV. Your guesses as to what may happen in the future may vary.

My guess is that eventually Windows will requite the latest KindleforPC and DeDRM won't work with it. I think Kindles (2024 and later) will not have D&T and will all be MTP. I think D&T will remain for older Kindles. I think eventually the KindleforAndroid hack will stop working.

So the only way to get Amazon eBooks to be able to remove the DRM (or come with no DRM) is to have a pre-2024 Kindle registered to your account. Eventually there will be no way to download KU eBooks and read them on anything but a Kindle or Kindle app.

Quoth · 01-12-2025, 11:11 AM

And more ebooks will be Amazon only.

JSWolf · 01-12-2025, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

And more ebooks will be Amazon only.

But if they are from author's you've never read before, It will be very easy to ignore them.

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01-11-2025, 01:58 PM	#18
Quoth Still reading Posts: 13,433 Karma: 102739835 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	OEBPS (really epub1) was open sourced before LIT existed. Epub2 is directly developed from OEBPS, and also open. And Microsoft orphaned LIT. That was the disaster. It was more similar to the idea (proprietary "compiled" binary file, not just compressed) to KFX. It has no connection to EPUB and didn't properly support all languages anyway. LIT was based off totally proprietary CHM (MS Compiled HTML Help).

01-11-2025, 02:55 PM	#19
PeterT Grand Sorcerer Posts: 13,135 Karma: 78857258 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Toronto Device: Libra H2O, Libra Colour	Fascinating as all this is maybe the time has come for y'all to head over to the Lounge and create a New Version of DRM tool discussion thread and move these discussions there. Sent from my Pixel 7a using Tapatalk

01-11-2025, 03:05 PM	#20
DNSB Bibliophagist Posts: 43,437 Karma: 165170834 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Vancouver Device: Kobo Sage, Libra Colour, Lenovo M8 FHD, Paperwhite 4, Tolino epos	This thread has wandered so far off topic, we may need Stanley to locate the topic. I tend to agree that a new thread would be a great idea. Perhaps an administrator might move the last batch of off topic messages to a new thread in General Discussion subforum or the Lounge subforum, Something like "DRM? Is it actually evil?" in General Discussions?

01-11-2025, 03:53 PM	#21
pdurrant The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠 Posts: 73,414 Karma: 314930086 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Norfolk, England Device: Kindle Oasis	A new thread, as requested.

01-12-2025, 11:11 AM	#29
Quoth Still reading Posts: 13,433 Karma: 102739835 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	And more ebooks will be Amazon only.

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