Is Smashwords the answer?

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Marj... you know that was forced on them right?

Whether it is or not isn't the point. The announcement was in favor of the purge (comparing erotica to Orwell with the implication that obviously the one is less valuable than the other and won't be missed) and there are no announced plans (that I know of) to dump Paypal for an alternative. (Of which there are legion.)

[heySkippy]

A business that doesn't accept Paypal is inevitably going to leave money on the table. I don't blame them a bit for the decision they made.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by heySkippy

A business that doesn't accept Paypal is inevitably going to leave money on the table. I don't blame them a bit for the decision they made.

Yea, and to do so would be a major business interruption for them, not something the could whimsically do or announce. I do not blame them at all, but I do think that they should be looking in to options and probably are.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Whether it is or not isn't the point. The announcement was in favor of the purge (comparing erotica to Orwell with the implication that obviously the one is less valuable than the other and won't be missed) and there are no announced plans (that I know of) to dump Paypal for an alternative. (Of which there are legion.)

Check their newsletter they sent this morning... they are doing the best they can to fight it. They are also looking for help in their fight, so read up and take part if you wish to make your voice known in anti-censorship land.

Personally I find it pretty worrisome, even though I am not in the target group, nor am I a reader of the targeted group.


From their email:

THE PROBLEM:

PayPal is asking us to censor legal fiction. Regardless of how one views topics of rape, bestiality and incest, these topics are pervasive in mainstream fiction. We believe this crackdown is really targeting erotica writers. This is unfair and it marks a slippery slope. We don't want credit card companies or financial institutions telling our authors what they can write and what readers can read. Fiction is fantasy. It's not real. It's legal.

One of my characters, well several, rebel against their culture's gods. How long before I am target for that? Where is the line? Censorship is a hard line to walk, and while some may or may not be needed, who gets to make the call?

Personally, I think Smashwords should be able to make the call on what they do and do not sell in this case. Just like Walmart made the call about music, which might be stronger then some would like, its still their store, their business and their call.

If the payment services are behind this, then no store can make that call either way.
/rant.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Personally, I think Smashwords should be able to make the call on what they do and do not sell in this case. Just like Walmart made the call about music, which might be stronger then some would like, its still their store, their business and their call.

If the payment services are behind this, then no store can make that call either way.

I do not; Smashwords should sell books regardless of content. Let's not get into censorship, period.

Dropbox takes Visa (and other things) manually. So does Amazon, which sells erotica. Is there any reason why Smashwords can't just... accept Visa? Paypal is not God, and I'd rather pay with my Visa directly anyway.

[altworld]

Shh... VydorScope don't let facts get in the way of false outrage :P

[altworld]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I do not; Smashwords should sell books regardless of content. Let's not get into censorship, period.

Dropbox takes Visa (and other things) manually. So does Amazon, which sells erotica. Is there any reason why Smashwords can't just... accept Visa? Paypal is not God, and I'd rather pay with my Visa directly anyway.

Is should be noted that Paypal has had a long running fight against their service being used to pay for pornography of any kind. This policy stretches back at least six years or so, from what I am reading they are just expanding it a little more. Also CC companies and the Banks that support them get a little unnerved by some of the more extreme erotica content... So switch out one payment system for another will just bring the same problems. I am with Mark on this one it is a complicated issue with no easy solutions.

[Redcard]

It is worth noting as altword has said, Paypal's agreement has banned pornography for years. ALL pornography, not just these "touchpoint"pornography categories.

It's hard for me to blame paypal for finally enforcing their TOS.. and Smashwords SHOULD have known that eventually paypal was going to do this.. after all, smashwords READ the TOS for years where paypal said that porn was banned.

I think Smashwords has been, in the eyes of paypal and others, breaking the rules of the TOS without incident for years. Those are years they could have been using to search for providers that didn't ban porn.

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by altworld

First rule of self-publishing... Money flows to the Author

Yes.

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Marj... you know that was forced on them right?

Well, no. My email from Mark Corker said Paypal told Smashwords what it was allowed to sell, and Mark Corker decided he would rather negotiate than break with PayPal. We all have choices, and that is the choice Smashwords has chosen.

I, too, am a beginning self publishing author. Personally, I was willing to try out Smashwords and risk the meatgrinder and all, but the deal breaker for me was that Smashwords will only pay authors outside the US with PayPal. I plan to phase in the same policy for American writers as well. And I will not deal with PayPal.

Because I refused to set up a PayPal account, I will never get paid for whatever copies of my eBook were sold there. That was my choice, even before the censorship thing.

Ironically, even though my novel is not erotica, since it deals with rape, one of the subjects PayPal outlawed, I would not be allowed to sell it under the new Smashwords censorship policy anyway. One of the main reasons I elected to self publish was so I would make the decisions. Not Smashwords, or PayPal.

I have no problem with a ratings system to prevent people from accidentally happening on material they would find offensive and to protect minors, but censorship is not an acceptable option if free speech is to exist.

The idea of corporate entities censoring what adults may read is disturbing. That PayPal should have the power to dictate human morality is ludicrous..

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by Redcard

It's hard for me to blame paypal for finally enforcing their TOS.. and Smashwords SHOULD have known that eventually paypal was going to do this.. after all, smashwords READ the TOS for years where paypal said that porn was banned.

Most people don't read TOSes at all. Or if they do, they read it one time. Or maybe only when you get told that you're breaking the rules. The TOS is not a legally binding contract, it is merely a set of rules that is unilaterally dictated. The dictator is within its rights to take its marbles and go home.

Something else to consider: Smashwords is not a publisher, but a distributor. Until now, Mark Corker has not attempted to perform any editorial function at all. Who has the right to censor publishers? Thought that was within the purview of government, not corporations.

[Jim Chaseley]

Apologies if this is a slight derail, but it doesn't deserve it's own thread and is at least related.

Once you've gotten onto Smashwords' premium catalogue and are thus available at Barnes, Kobo, etc...do you bother specifically promoting those links, or do you still just promote your Amazon and Smashwords links?

I've just seen my book appear at the Kobo site, via Smashwords, but I don't know if I should bother shouting about it or not!

[teh603]

Originally Posted by LaurelRusswurm

Ironically, even though my novel is not erotica, since it deals with rape, one of the subjects PayPal outlawed, I would not be allowed to sell it under the new Smashwords censorship policy anyway. One of the main reasons I elected to self publish was so I would make the decisions. Not Smashwords, or PayPal.

Dunno, from what I read it was specifically erotica that eroticized rape and abuse. Having a novel where its a major element isn't necessarily an issue, as long as the rape isn't meant to be erotic.

The idea of corporate entities censoring what adults may read is disturbing. That PayPal should have the power to dictate human morality is ludicrous..

Really? Sounds like you don't really understand capitalism. If you have the money to enforce your own views on others, then you have a money-given right to do just that.

[Redcard]

Originally Posted by LaurelRusswurm

Most people don't read TOSes at all. Or if they do, they read it one time. Or maybe only when you get told that you're breaking the rules. The TOS is not a legally binding contract, it is merely a set of rules that is unilaterally dictated. The dictator is within its rights to take its marbles and go home.

Something else to consider: Smashwords is not a publisher, but a distributor. Until now, Mark Corker has not attempted to perform any editorial function at all. Who has the right to censor publishers? Thought that was within the purview of government, not corporations.

You kind of have it backwards.

In the US, at least, where Smashwords is based, the Constitution all but bans the government from censoring except in very limited circumstances. Even in those cases where they have, it's often been challenged and the more liberal stance has ended up being taken most every time. Robert Maplethorpe shoved a whip handle up his rear and took a picture of it, and Cincinatti tried to ban it. Maplethorpe won.

Businesses, however, have every right to determine what they will and will not sell. Businesses may censor all day long. Walmart, for example, will not sell violent rap or death metal. When they do , they often censor the albums. They will not sell certain categories of books or magazines. While they have tons of Bibles at Walmarts, you will not see a single Koran.

This is what smashwords did in this case. Yes, paypal threatened them, but smashwords has chosen to do business with paypal, which means a compromise. Part of that compromise involves smashwords choosing to no longer do business with authors and readers who like certain categories of stories.

I researched this deeply, and I don't think I'll be linking in websites of bookstores that now DO get to sell authors who write incest, rape, and beastiality stories.. but I did find them. They don't use paypal, obviously. But they do exist.

In the end here, Smashwords has made a choice to censor instead of fight. They did so likely knowing well in advance that this was coming. For example, I am a member of a community known as "Furry." Paypal notified various artists in this community that drawing furs in "sexual" positions was known as beastiality. They started locking accounts well over a year and a half ago. Articles were written about it, paypal's TOS was linked, people went kinda crazy about it.. but in the end, the general internet response was "So what, they're furries, they probably are all humping their dogs." Everybody ignored it.

But , people missed something there. Paypal's terms of service have remained unchanged since that event. Nobody thought about asking "Hey, am _I_ breaking these rules?" Maybe if they did , then, companies like smashwords would have picked one of the numerous payment providers out there that don't ban anything.

Smashwords had a choice in this, and had one all along. The excuse that not everyone reads TOS's is great for users like you and me, but for someone that bases their entire income on it.. is a very poor business decision.

I blame Paypal for making their decision.

I blame Smashwords for capitulation when they and others had over a year to figure this out. This didn't start a month or two ago.

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by Jim Chaseley

I've just seen my book appear at the Kobo site, via Smashwords, but I don't know if I should bother shouting about it or not!

I would. Especially if you're self publishing, you should take any any and every opportunity. Isaac Asimov wrote that if you don't toot your own horn, no one else will

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by teh603

Dunno, from what I read it was specifically erotica that eroticized rape and abuse. Having a novel where its a major element isn't necessarily an issue, as long as the rape isn't meant to be erotic.

"In case you haven't heard, about two weeks ago, PayPal contacted Smashwords and
gave us a surprise ultimatum: Remove all titles containing bestiality, rape
or incest, otherwise they threatened to deactivate our PayPal account. "
— Mark Corker email

Originally Posted by teh603

Really? Sounds like you don't really understand capitalism. If you have the money to enforce your own views on others, then you have a money-given right to do just that.

Perhaps I don't understand capitalism. But then I grew up in a world where "the customer is always right" and governments actually made an attempt to keep corporations from screwing their citizens. Of course, in those days, there were civil rights protecting citizens from government abuses too.