How does Plucker (free) compare to iSilo (commercial)?

[hacker]

Originally Posted by Alexander

[*]documents > 32Kb are fragmented into 32Kb parts (where you get the "click for next page" link at the bottom of each part)

They are now seamed together, if you configure it as such. Fixed.

[*]uncompressed images can only be <60Kb

A Palm limitation, which can be worked around in various ways. Fixed.

[*]no table support (in latest CVS: table support, rudimentary due to limited 60Kb space)

What version were you testing? Tables have been supported for at least the last 3 releases of Plucker.

[*]auto-scrolling cannot keep up with normal reading speed unless scroll speed is set to more pixels, at which point the text becomes too jumpy

Again, what version did you try? Users report a HUGE increase in speed of the scrolling over previous versions. Try one of the latest stable or unstable releases.

[*]slow screen updates[*]slow scroll bar response time[*]search text algorithm slow

Ditto, see above.
[*]change in font causes page to rep**** and restart from the top again

Fixed.

[*]applications lose focus when Plucker updates channels (also in scheduling mode)

I have no idea what this means. Palm can only run one application at a time, so I'm not sure how it can "lose focus".

[*]only single URL include pattern

What does this mean? You can include any number of URLs you wish, or exclude any number of URLs you wish, verbosely, or via a regex, or other methods. Always have, always will.

[*]high ram memory consumption while downloading (Plucker Desktop)

It probably keeps the pages cached in memory. My perl version strips non-visible elements from the content and packs them into a binary in the array, while parsing, to reduce the memory footprint required to manage the pages.

[*]font support is incomplete for OS5 machines such as Sony NX, NZ, TG, Tungsten

This sounds like a Palm bug. We support whatever fonts they provide, and include our own high-resolution fonts as well.

[*]doesn't do double-density fonts (someone with OS 5 confirm please)

What does this mean?

[*]doesn't handle cookies (allowing, disabling, manual setting)

This sounds like a p****r problem, not a Plucker problem. Use a p****r that supports cookies. There are at least a dozen that support Plucker as an output file format.

[*]doesn't handle forms

There is some discussion about how to implement this, but so far, we haven't received any patches from people interested in making it work.

[*]doesn't handle java-scripts

Javascript, as you know, must be executed to be interpreted. It isn't "p****d" like HTML. Adding a javascript-rendering engine to the p****r or the viewer is wasteful and unnecessary. Don't plan on this ever being in Plucker.

[*]doesn't support non-html yet common tags like pods://avantgo/back

We support industry-standard HTML and text constructs, per the requisite RFC. Show me where the 'pods://' protocol is documented in an RFC, and we will consider adding it.

[*]no Pocket PC version available

You mean besides Vade Mecum, the PocketPC version of Plucker?

[*]indentation for bulleted/numbered lists is wrong, the text is not properly aligned

This may be fixed, but I haven't tested it. Try 1.6.2 or 1.7 or one of the hourly snapshots and find out. If it isn't, please report it in the bugtracker, so we can track and fix it.

[*]no Internet Explorer integration

There are at least 3 third-party utils that let you right-click in IE and select "Send to Plucker" or similar options. There is also a Mozilla extension that does something similar.

[*]no Unicode (specifically UTF-8 encoding) support

Plucker supports UTF-8, and has for quite some time now. Perhaps your p****r is the problem?

[*]no multi-threaded download of webpages

Also a p****r problem. I can pull roughly 1,000 webpages in about 4 minutes with my Perl p****r. I know the Java version can do the same in about 8-9 minutes. I haven't benchmarked the Python one though. It definately is grabbing the content in parallel.

(Incidentally, your forum software is neutering 'p-a-r-s-e-r' with asterisks. You might want to whitelist that word)

[hacker]

Originally Posted by radleyp

Your 6th paragraph mentions all these features that are supposedly present in Plucker but not in iSilo. In fact, with the exception of "annotation" and "transliteration" (not sure about that one, since I don't know what you mean, are you talking about spelling non-latin alphabets in Latin?) they are all in iSilo, along with many other features.

Funny, last time I tried iSilo, I don't recall seeing it categorizing the same content in multiple places. I don't recall seeing it supporting Gestures, or dictionary lookup, or many other things I mentioned. If it does, feel free to send me a list, with screenshots, and I'll update the comparison page to reflect these recent additions that iSilo has made.

I have found Plucker and JPlucker to be unsatisfactory: I never could get the latter to work right, and as a reader iSilo is much better, with its really smooth scrolling and its large choice of fonts.

I'm not sure what "JPlucker" is, I've never heard of it. If you mean "JPluck", that is simply a GUI for creating Plucker content. It was written by someone in the community, and isn't part of "Plucker" itself. Plucker ships with the viewer, and the Python distiller. Anything else is ancillary. You're comparing the viewer itself (Plucker) with the tool used to create content for the viewer (JPluck). I'm not sure what you found "unsatisfactory" between the two of them, so feel free to enlighten us.

I would love to use the Plucker you are describing, but I have not found it.

Funny, hundreds of users would tend to disagree.. but I digress. You might want to try using a version of Plucker that is more current. It sounds like you're using quite an old version, because we've solved many of the issues you've mentioned here, months and months ago.

Anyway, use whatever works. If you prefer iSilo, use that. If you want more features, a faster, more-capable reader, use Plucker. If you don't like the GUI (JPluck), pick one of the other dozen or so methods to create content. You aren't limited to just one.

[radleyp]

I'm not sure what you mean by "gestures." Dictionary lookup is done by highlighting, copying and opening the dictionary. Multiple categorization is supported in the latest iSilo.

I am using Plucker 1.6.2 (and I wish you would stop issuing silly "corrections" as you did with Alexander too - we both know the difference between desktop and pda versions, and you know what "JPluck-ER" means). I have a lot of trouble doing conversions with Plucker (must I add 'Desktop" or is it clear that that is what I mean?).

Plucker is a group effort, all parts of which should work together. It makes no difference to me who developped JPluck, it came as part of a Plucker package. How else do you think I got it?

I understand that the program is free, and I appreciate your efforts and those of the other developers. But as a computer novice talking to one as knowledgeable as you, I look for (and expect) help. I hope you understand that. I use what works for me, and iSilo does. Philippe Radley

[hacker]

Originally Posted by radleyp

I'm not sure what you mean by "gestures."

Gestures, as in using graffiti strokes for navigation through the document itself.

Dictionary lookup is done by highlighting, copying and opening the dictionary.

Ok, so it isn't as seamless as it is in Plucker. In Plucker, you highlight the word, and tap Lookup, and it launches the dictionary and looks up the word. Exiting the dictionary returns you to Plucker. In our case, the AbsoltueWord people run their app in "registered" mode, if they find that it was launched via Plucker.

Multiple categorization is supported in the latest iSilo.

That must be new. I didn't think you could have the same exact content, multiple times, with the same names, in different categories, with iSilo.

I am using Plucker 1.6.2 (and I wish you would stop issuing silly "corrections" as you did with Alexander too - we both know the difference between desktop and pda versions, and you know what "JPluck-ER" means).

No, actually it isn't. It isn't a "silly" correction at all. We don't ship JPluck. It is a completely separate, independant project, which just happens to include our viewer in the installer. JPluck is being moved to a proprietary model anyway, and the author is making his own viewer (proprietary also), largely because he wanted features that we didn't think were worthy of supporting in Plucker.

I have a lot of trouble doing conversions with Plucker (must I add 'Desktop" or is it clear that that is what I mean?).

Yes, you absolutely must. Plucker Desktop is very different from JPluck, which is very different from pler, which is very different from FlingIt, which is very different from Sitescooper, which is very different from my own perl distiller code. They all output Plucker documents, but they all use very different languages and methods to do it.

If you have trouble doing conversions with one, don't blame Plucker, try a different tool. Knowing which tool you're using is important, because each one has its own positives and negatives.

Plucker is a group effort, all parts of which should work together. It makes no difference to me who developped JPluck, it came as part of a Plucker package. How else do you think I got it?

See above. JPluck is not part of Plucker. It is not developed by anybody who develops Plucker. It is an independant, "third-party" package that produces Plucker documents as its current output format. Now that the development of JPluck is stopped, the author is moving onto his own proprietary viewer and desktop components.

I hope you understand that. I use what works for me, and iSilo does.

As I said previously... use whatever works, just don't mislead people into believing things which can't be backed up with facts. If iSilo works for you, great, continue using it. I could care less what people use. I'm just trying to correct the misconceptions and untruths about the project I contribute a significant amount of my time supporting.

We're getting a lot of work now, custom work, from companies and businesses that used to use iSilo for their products, but are now moving to Plucker, because it is openly available, with source code, and is developed by a fast-moving team of people distributed across the globe. If one of us happens to get hit by a bus, the project still moves forward.

What happens if the iSilo author gets hit by a bus?

[ignatz]

There is way too much attitude here and everyone needs to tone it down. It's plain that this whole forum is focussed on iSilo and will tend to lean that way. However, I think that Alexander's initial review was open to correction, and he was looking to create discussion. There's no sense in escalating into a flame war. I use iSilo (mainly because I found it first), but I'm very interested in Plucker because I like to support open source projects. (And free is nice too.) Hacker, I don't think the initial review meant any disrespect toward your hard work, but simply reflected Alexanders empirical experience. I hope that everyone can relax a bit and bring it back to a more friendly discussion. Even a spirited debate is fine, but does every app vs. app discussion have to degenerate into sniping? I think that a healthy discussion of the merits of these two powerful pieces of software could be extremely useful to the community.

Hacker, I have to say that it is not at all clear on the plkr.org site that JPluck is separate from the rest of the plucker project. It looks like just one other component. Also, is the perl p****r available yet or is it still in production? I can't find it anywhere. I really like that Plucker is available on bittorrent, my favorite file trading utility.

And everyone else, just tone it down a notch, please?

Ignatz

[Laurens]

Originally Posted by hacker

JPluck is being moved to a proprietary model anyway

JPluck is NOT being moved to a proprietary model. This is a *completely* false statement. The source is there for others to pick up. Also, I'm not using any JPluck code in my new project.

Originally Posted by hacker

and the author is making his own viewer (proprietary also), largely because he wanted features that we didn't think were worthy of supporting in Plucker.

I have *never* proposed any features to the Plucker dev team. Another *completely* false statement. Actually, I helped Adam McDaniel in developing multi-images last spring. (Back then, JPluck was the only p****r that supported multi-images.) Features not "worthy of supporting in Plucker"? What is wrong with you???

I'm developing my own viewer because I think there is plenty of room for improvement in PDA web viewer/reading software. You'll understand when you see it in action (in a few months). My decision has absolutely *nothing* to do with Plucker. I'm simply starting my own business and the new viewer will be one of the products in my portfolio.

The viewer will be commercial and closed-source, that is true, but the desktop and server tools will be open-source. Also, the viewer will support HTML, XML and GIF/JPEG/PNG directly. There's nothing proprietary about those formats.

[radleyp]

I installed the new Plucker (1.6.2) and it's a fine reader. I must tell you, however, that I can't find the dictionary lookup or how to get other than the pre-packaged fonts to work. (Is that in 1.7?) I tried to read a cyrillic text and could not.

Permit me, please, one comment. I think this product is distributed in an offputting way: when I install a reader with a converter, I want the two to work seamlessly. I am not a computer person and I will not start hunting for other converters, especially if there is no manual or other material to tell me what to look for and where.

You should know that I bought a T3, after using a Sony 615 for two years, mainly because of the larger screen. That I cannot use that with Plucker, whatever the reason, is a real downer.

Thanks again for your comments. Philippe Radley

Originally Posted by hacker

Gestures, as in using graffiti strokes for navigation through the document itself.


Ok, so it isn't as seamless as it is in Plucker. In Plucker, you highlight the word, and tap Lookup, and it launches the dictionary and looks up the word. Exiting the dictionary returns you to Plucker. In our case, the AbsoltueWord people run their app in "registered" mode, if they find that it was launched via Plucker.


That must be new. I didn't think you could have the same exact content, multiple times, with the same names, in different categories, with iSilo.


No, actually it isn't. It isn't a "silly" correction at all. We don't ship JPluck. It is a completely separate, independant project, which just happens to include our viewer in the installer. JPluck is being moved to a proprietary model anyway, and the author is making his own viewer (proprietary also), largely because he wanted features that we didn't think were worthy of supporting in Plucker.


Yes, you absolutely must. Plucker Desktop is very different from JPluck, which is very different from pler, which is very different from FlingIt, which is very different from Sitescooper, which is very different from my own perl distiller code. They all output Plucker documents, but they all use very different languages and methods to do it.

If you have trouble doing conversions with one, don't blame Plucker, try a different tool. Knowing which tool you're using is important, because each one has its own positives and negatives.


See above. JPluck is not part of Plucker. It is not developed by anybody who develops Plucker. It is an independant, "third-party" package that produces Plucker documents as its current output format. Now that the development of JPluck is stopped, the author is moving onto his own proprietary viewer and desktop components.


As I said previously... use whatever works, just don't mislead people into believing things which can't be backed up with facts. If iSilo works for you, great, continue using it. I could care less what people use. I'm just trying to correct the misconceptions and untruths about the project I contribute a significant amount of my time supporting.

We're getting a lot of work now, custom work, from companies and businesses that used to use iSilo for their products, but are now moving to Plucker, because it is openly available, with source code, and is developed by a fast-moving team of people distributed across the globe. If one of us happens to get hit by a bus, the project still moves forward.

What happens if the iSilo author gets hit by a bus?

[radleyp]

I just went to the Plucker home page and learned that the dictionary lookup works with Road Lingua, which I do not own. With the iSilo copy and paste I can look up words in any of the four dictionary programs that I do own. So while it requires one more click, the iSilo lookup method is more versatile and powerful. Philippe Radley

Originally Posted by radleyp

I installed the new Plucker (1.6.2) and it's a fine reader. I must tell you, however, that I can't find the dictionary lookup or how to get other than the pre-packaged fonts to work. (Is that in 1.7?) I tried to read a cyrillic text and could not.

Permit me, please, one comment. I think this product is distributed in an offputting way: when I install a reader with a converter, I want the two to work seamlessly. I am not a computer person and I will not start hunting for other converters, especially if there is no manual or other material to tell me what to look for and where.

You should know that I bought a T3, after using a Sony 615 for two years, mainly because of the larger screen. That I cannot use that with Plucker, whatever the reason, is a real downer.

Thanks again for your comments. Philippe Radley

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by rhubarb

Sorry for the bad language in this post...So let me restate: I think it must be the word P-A-R-S-E-R with the word A-R-S-E automatically censored out.

Oups. I just recently implemented censorship of "offending" words. Sorry for this 'parser'-thing, of course, the word 'parser' should be allowed here

Alex

[Alexander Turcic]

Ignatz is right, the purpose of the review was not to disqualify Plucker, but to start making a comparison of two similar software products.

Hacker, please note that my review was done exactly one year ago, and, as mentioned in the review, the versions being reviewed were Plucker Desktop V1.2.0.4 (Build Feb 12 2003) and Plucker Viewer (Hi-Res V1.1.3 Feb 22 2003). I am happy that you are pointing out the dramatic improvements of Plucker since then, and am more than willing to write a follow-up of the initial review.

[radleyp]

If I'm wrong, best to face it.

Last week I downloaded and installed the new Plucker viewer 1.8 and the desktop converter 1.6. I am not only impressed, I must admit that I find it superior to iSilo, over and above the fact that it is free. Let me cite just three elements, and suggest that all of you here try it out.

1. It has the best font rendition I have yet seen on a PDA screen. I use both Latin and Cyrillic alphabets and the letters are as black as those on a printed page. And there is a font conversion tool.

2. The dictionary lookup is excellent. You can go directly to RoadLingua (which I do not own) or just tap on a word - that puts it in the clipboard - and then open up a dictionary that picks up what's in the clipboard.

3. You can set the scheduling to repeat at set intervals, so that every time you hotsync, Plucker converts (this is equivalent to the AvantGo conduit).

Additionally, I find that images are rendered brighter and more in depth. I highly recommend it. Philippe Radley

[ignatz]

This review was convincing enough for me to go back and review Plucker again. I'm not crazy about the direction that iSilo has taken with it's new release, so it seemed like a good time. I've only begun, but I'm pretty pleased.

• Radley is right, the fonts are spectacular. This in itself is nearly enough reason for me to switch over, as I've been dying for good serif fonts on iSilo, but nothing comes through well. I have not seen such sweet fonts on any application that I use in the Palm. Now I'm eager to try to convert some of my own. There is a small price to pay in refresh time as you go from page to page, but it's well worth it.
• The "Pluck This" plugin for Firefox (already updated for the 0.9 version and also available for Mozilla) is great. With iSilo I had to carry a link over into IE to use the iSilo "clipper". The drawback of Pluck This is that JPluckX has to be running. Not a big deal, but one more step.
• Configuration between the two appears very similar. I haven't liked the new organization of iSilo's categories. Plucker does allow multiple categories for plucks, which is great.

I have more testing to do and I'll report back. Looks like we have a contender.

[Alexander Turcic]

Perhaps it is time to write an update to my initial (1-1/2 years old) review...

[ignatz]

UPDATE: I am very happy with the new Plucker. It has become my preferred reader. Haven't found a downside yet...

[Alexander Turcic]

You make me very curious. I haven't had time to check the latest Plucker yet, but from your comments it sounds as if I was indeed missing something!