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Old 10-24-2016, 09:32 AM   #316
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I think overall people would prefer books that weren't a huge time commitment in any case, especially if we'd like to entice people out of their comfort zone. I take your point about OverDrive; I'm usually pretty lucky when it comes to getting a book when the alternatives are pricey, but this month while I'm on a few waiting lists for Sapiens, I won't get it in time for the discussion.

I think your alternative option is a non-starter. To much work for Tom in particular and everyone in general, for one thing. I think it would cut down on participation, also. By year-end, early voters might have moved on while people who joined the club after the vote are disenfranchised.
OK, we can scrap my second suggestion. But I do think my first suggestion (nominations/voting one month ahead) would work and it would still give people the ability to participate. Also, I do think price can be an issue and given that a lot of libraries have gone to 3-week borrow with auto checkout, the chances of getting a book before the discussion can be slim to none. I liked it better when it was 2-weeks with no auto-checkout. That meant less time for the borrow and if the person missed borrowing, it moved on to the next person instead of being borrowed. Also, I don't like the fact that accounts are set to the maximum borrow period automatically. And I think most people don't return when they finish. They just leave it and let it expire.

I think my first suggestion would mean that large books could be nominated without getting dissed for being too long.
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:55 PM   #317
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I've advocated for the nominations and voting to be a month ahead just so we can nominate large books and have the time to read. Also, it can give us time to get the books from Overdrive since the wait list can be too long for a regular month.

There is another option. Just do all the nominating/voting in January and there you go for the year.


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I think overall people would prefer books that weren't a huge time commitment in any case, especially if we'd like to entice people out of their comfort zone. I take your point about OverDrive; I'm usually pretty lucky when it comes to getting a book when the alternatives are pricey, but this month while I'm on a few waiting lists for Sapiens, I won't get it in time for the discussion.

I think your alternative option is a non-starter. Too much work for Tom in particular and everyone in general, for one thing. I think it would cut down on participation, also. By year-end, early voters might have moved on while people who joined the club after the vote are disenfranchised.
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OK, we can scrap my second suggestion. But I do think my first suggestion (nominations/voting one month ahead) would work and it would still give people the ability to participate. Also, I do think price can be an issue and given that a lot of libraries have gone to 3-week borrow with auto checkout, the chances of getting a book before the discussion can be slim to none. I liked it better when it was 2-weeks with no auto-checkout. That meant less time for the borrow and if the person missed borrowing, it moved on to the next person instead of being borrowed. Also, I don't like the fact that accounts are set to the maximum borrow period automatically. And I think most people don't return when they finish. They just leave it and let it expire.

I think my first suggestion would mean that large books could be nominated without getting dissed for being too long.
Good to scrap that second suggestion. All sorts of problems with it.

As far as trying to put the nominations and vote a month early I'm not sure that would accomplish much. Are there many people who would need two months to read a book and are willing to devote that entire period to reading just that one book? Better that consideration of book length be given in nominating and voting for a book. I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich many years ago, sometime in the period of junior high to high school. That's so long ago that I could not really hope to participate with any serious analysis of that particular book without reading it again. Not really inclined to do that since it is on a subject that is so well known, unlike most of the other potential selections mentioned so far. It would not get my vote for sure.

As far and price and availability issues raised. Well for one thing I would mention that even when an ebook is very pricey or is difficult to get almost any book is still available in paper. And likely available though ones library system. Or at a used book store. For over 400 years printed books served people well. However, if one must have the book as an ebook, and that at a reasonable price, than both considerations should be considered in ones voting.

As far as observations about Overdrive .. . . I agree with much of what you said. I disliked the switch to auto- checkout, though that can be disabled at the time of placing a hold. I like to be informed by email when the book becomes available. I will check it out right away. Sometimes I put books on hold on speculation. For example the books nominated for October. I placed holds on all those that were available to me through Overdrive on first nomination. As soon as the final book was selected I just canceled all those other holds. With the automatic checkout option if I had forgotten to do that I might have needlessly tied up a book for the standard checkout period at some later point.
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Old 10-24-2016, 02:10 PM   #318
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Good to scrap that second suggestion. All sorts of problems with it.

As far as trying to put the nominations and vote a month early I'm not sure that would accomplish much. Are there many people who would need two months to read a book and are willing to devote that entire period to reading just that one book? Better that consideration of book length be given in nominating and voting for a book. I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich many years ago, sometime in the period of junior high to high school. That's so long ago that I could not really hope to participate with any serious analysis of that particular book without reading it again. Not really inclined to do that since it is on a subject that is so well known, unlike most of the other potential selections mentioned so far. It would not get my vote for sure.

As far and price and availability issues raised. Well for one thing I would mention that even when an ebook is very pricey or is difficult to get almost any book is still available in paper. And likely available though ones library system. Or at a used book store. For over 400 years printed books served people well. However, if one must have the book as an ebook, and that at a reasonable price, than both considerations should be considered in ones voting.
The problem is that a large enough book cannot realistically be nominated because it would take too long to read. If enough people thought it would not be too long to read given a month leeway is up to them. But I do think a month leeway might get more people involved especially if they could get the book via Overdrive. The time we have between the voting and the discussion is not always enough to get the eBook from Overdrive.

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As far as observations about Overdrive .. . . I agree with much of what you said. I disliked the switch to auto- checkout, though that can be disabled at the time of placing a hold. I like to be informed by email when the book becomes available. I will check it out right away. Sometimes I put books on hold on speculation. For example the books nominated for October. I placed holds on all those that were available to me through Overdrive on first nomination. As soon as the final book was selected I just canceled all those other holds. With the automatic checkout option if I had forgotten to do that I might have needlessly tied up a book for the standard checkout period at some later point.
I don't like auto-checkout because it means that people can be lazy and not have to go to the library to check it out. It's done for them. So if someone is unable to deal with the book in 2-3 days, it will be there waiting. Whereas before, it would move on to the next person in line. I know you can turn off auto-checkout, but most people will not do that. They'll keep the default options which are 3-weeks (for libraries that allow 3-weeks) and auto-checkout. That will make for a longer wait time.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:04 PM   #319
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We've had people complaining in the past that three weeks is too long a time period between the vote and the discussion, and I've argued that people who read faster could simply wait until they were closer to the discussion date before reading, but I don't think extending the time period even longer would help. I would think people would grow bored if they had to wait too long.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:15 PM   #320
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I don't think super long books are ever going to be popular or successful choices. People are busy; they've got other things to read. And 1600 pages is insane. Like Hamlet, I read the Shirer in adolescence and I have no intention of reading it again. In part because of its length, but also because the historiography must be dated. It was published over fifty years ago and many relevant sources have only become available since then. I'm not saying it's not a classic, but I am saying something more current is probably better conducive to understanding.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:41 AM   #321
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I would hope that length isn't the determining factor in the book club. If a book is good, I want to read it. If you feel a book isn't worth it's length, don't nominate it; or if it has been nominated, don't second and third it; or post some comments during nominating/voting that it it is too long and isn't a good read.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:07 AM   #322
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I would hope that length isn't the determining factor in the book club. If a book is good, I want to read it. If you feel a book isn't worth it's length, don't nominate it; or if it has been nominated, don't second and third it; or post some comments during nominating/voting that it it is too long and isn't a good read.
I'm certainly not proposing any rule change. If someone feels that a very long book would be a good choice let them nominate it. Let others decide whether or not its length stops them from seconding the nomination or voting for it if it makes it to that point. Not everyone has to read every book nominated. Oh, and what you suggest is really just what is going on here and in the November 2016 nomination thread.

This discussion was sparked by discussion of the books being considered for November 2016. I find such a contrast between Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari that attempts to cover the 70,000 year history of man in 414 pages and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer that covers [primarily] German history over a approximately 45 year period. Not saying one is too sparse or the other overkill. Just that the contrast in notable and amusing.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:17 AM   #323
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This discussion was sparked by discussion of the books being considered for November 2016. I find such a contrast between Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari that attempts to cover the 70,000 year history of man in 414 pages and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer that covers [primarily] German history over a approximately 45 year period. Not saying one is too sparse or the other overkill. Just that the contrast in notable and amusing.


I am not sure if I would have thought of reading the Sapiens at the moment if number of pages were reversed.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:36 AM   #324
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I don't think super long books are ever going to be popular or successful choices. People are busy; they've got other things to read. And 1600 pages is insane. Like Hamlet, I read the Shirer in adolescence and I have no intention of reading it again. In part because of its length, but also because the historiography must be dated. It was published over fifty years ago and many relevant sources have only become available since then. I'm not saying it's not a classic, but I am saying something more current is probably better conducive to understanding.
It's not just about long books. It's also about the wait time at Overdrive. Some people don't have the money to spend on an expensive eBook when it can be had for free from Overdrive. But due to the wait lists, an extra month might help.
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Old 10-25-2016, 06:43 PM   #325
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I am not sure if I would have thought of reading the Sapiens at the moment if number of pages were reversed.
I, on the other hand, am absolutely sure I would NOT consider it.
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Old 10-31-2016, 11:30 AM   #326
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Price, accessibility, length

I'm just musing a bit here, since I was late to acknowledge the difficulties in this month's slate. The choices mostly seemed like pretty good to excellent reads to me.

Of the eight books nominated this month, only three cost less than $10 and that includes one for $9.99. Different people have different thresholds for how much they're willing to spend, starting with nothing (and there's nothing wrong with that), but I suspect $10 is an upper limit taking in almost everyone and that most aren't willing to go that high. My guess is that the modal limit is about $5 to $6, skewing lower and not higher.

That said, accessibility becomes a factor; that is, how can you get a copy of a book for cheaper or nothing? Almost I'm coming around to Jon's POV, but rest assured, the sky is not falling. In fact, I wouldn't have a problem getting any of the November choices from OverDrive with the exception of Sapiens. I already own a few, but those titles also are available to me; others however may not have good OverDrive options. Some don't mind pbook alternatives; for some, that's a dealbreaker. In any case, I'm not seeing a cheap option on Sapiens. I'm not singling Sapiens out; it's just the extreme example of this issue this month.

Length has already been cited more than once and yay! for Sapiens; it's the third shortest option. I haven't checked back matter on the choices which will undoubtedly be significant in some cases, but there's no denying there are some hefty reads here.

So... where am I going with this? Really just wishing we'd do a better job keeping the end in mind, and this goes for me, too. I enjoy the nomination process; frequently books are brought to my attention which I'd like to read. But I think it's become an end in itself with little thought given to the ensuing discussion and the likelihood of a dynamic conversation. It's a horse race and people move on once it's over. I'm belaboring the point, but no matter how interesting a book is, if it's inaccessible for reasons of price or length there won't be a talk. Some won't mind that, but I think it's a loss. And, I want to emphasize, this isn't just a problem for history month. Last November's discussion of Kafka on the Shore ($12, 500 pages) got two comments.

Mea culpa. I realize now I should have voted for William the Conqueror. Short and free, it might have had people discussing it. I would show up for the discussion for most of the choices; however Sapiens is out of reach and Third Reich is ridiculously long.

Sigh. I know we've been down this road before, but it's frustrating. I love to talk about books.

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Old 10-31-2016, 04:17 PM   #327
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If I had not found (by accident) the audiobook of Sapiens available from Hoopla, I would not be taking part in History month. The one I already own will not win and the one that will win is too costly and at all the libraries I have access to that have Sapiens have too long a wait for to get it in time to read. If we were nominating/voting a month ahead, I would have been able to get the eBook and had time to read it.

Given issybird's post right before this one, I think we should include the price of the eBook from Amazon and Kobo for the US, UK, AU, & CA. We already include a page count. So a price would help as well.

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Old 10-31-2016, 04:30 PM   #328
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I've always tried to include prices in my nominations, for just this reason. (And it's why not including Amazon and Kobo links in the nominations is a bad idea, IMHO.)

We've started doing page counts. Let's add prices, even if only in USD. At least it gives us a basis to compare.
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Old 10-31-2016, 06:03 PM   #329
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I've always tried to include prices in my nominations, for just this reason. (And it's why not including Amazon and Kobo links in the nominations is a bad idea, IMHO.)

We've started doing page counts. Let's add prices, even if only in USD. At least it gives us a basis to compare.
From here on out, I am going to include prices. I'll be using Kobo and Amazon for my prices.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:53 AM   #330
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I think there was some discussion of re-evaluating categories again this year (I may be mistaken), but I was wondering if it is time to look at visible voting too.

I know there are a few people who don't like the visible voting and I am wondering if changing votes to hidden would encourage them to vote and participate. Things have been visible for a few years now. Everything since at least 2014, maybe 2013, and partially visible for at least a couple years prior to that.
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