Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Readers > Amazon Kindle

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Today, 11:04 AM   #76
Sirtel
Wizard
Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Sirtel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Sirtel's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,509
Karma: 11800445
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Estonia
Device: Kindle Voyage, Kindle Oasis 1 & 2, Nook Glowlight Plus (7.8'')
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
I suspect the Oasis line will die as the Voyage line has done.
There will always be a premium line and it'll probably include... you guessed it, buttons! Even Kobo has seen the light in this regard. And B&N with their Nook. Enough people want buttons and larger screens so that those are not going to disappear.
Sirtel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:26 AM   #77
j.p.s
Wizard
j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,142
Karma: 35109951
Join Date: Apr 2011
Device: pb360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NullNix View Post
What is "turning completely off"? I'm fairly sure that the sleep mode Oasises go into halts the CPU, but the RAM is still powered because a full boot cycle takes about two minutes and nobody would want to wait *that* long.
CPU halt with RAM refresh left on describes the sleep mode of all kindles until the last few years. The newer kindles do that for about 30 minutes, then go into a state that is hibernation or very like it (save RAM and context to disk then power off).
j.p.s is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:46 AM   #78
NullNix
Fanatic
NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 570
Karma: 2663438
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ely, Cambridgeshire, UK
Device: Kindle Oasis, Kindle Paperwhite
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Completely turned off is when it's not in sleep mode. When it's not slowly draining the battery while it's not used.
No device with a lithium-ion battery has a state in which the battery does not slowly drain when it is not used, both from self-discharge and because the battery circuit is required by contract to always be powered or they won't license you the patents to let you build one.

But more generally... modern machines' power architecture is far more complex than you seem to think. They have a wide variety of power states in which different components on the motherboard are at different power levels: the machine typically knows the levels available, the clock frequency (if applicable) each level implies and any appropriate dividers, the amount of power they save, the dependency graph between the various power-variable components (so you don't turn something off that something else that hasn't been turned off needs to have powered on) and the state transition cost (both in power and time). There is no single 'sleep mode'. There is a ferociously complicated and endlessly oscillating mesh of changing power states. With appropriate debugging tools, it can be hypnotic to watch the state transitions, particularly if some components are being reawoken on overlapping but distinct regular schedules: you get moire patterns and everything.

It is likely that significant parts of the system are unpowered even when you think the thing is in use (the most obvious part being much of the e-ink display). It is also likely that significant parts are powered even when you think it is "turned off". You can't tell just by looking at it, and you certainly can't tell by looking at the incredibly unreliable meter which is battery percentage (a proxy for battery voltage). The operating system on an embedded platform like this one will have a good idea, but it might not be too willing to tell you. (On larger systems, even the operating system is probably too far up the stack to tell just what power state various parts of the system are in.)

The question is not "is it turned completely off?". The question is "*which components* are powered down?". Unfortunately the RAM is one of the most power-hungry non-solid-state classes of components out there, and also one of the hardest to turn off or even turn down. I vaguely wonder if sleep mode saves some power here by shuffling everything into one RAM bank and turning off the other one to save power, but given the degree of change this would require to the Linux kernel, I really, really doubt it ("ferociously hard" doesn't even *begin* to describe it). It just seems like it would be a nice thing to do (but they're almost certainly not doing it).

(If the Sony isn't running Linux, it's possible it was running an embedded OS that allowed faster boot and/or possibly a RAM compacting scheme that allowed it to shuffle literally *everything* out of much of the RAM and shut it down. But I have even less idea if that might be true.)
NullNix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:47 AM   #79
NullNix
Fanatic
NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NullNix ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 570
Karma: 2663438
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ely, Cambridgeshire, UK
Device: Kindle Oasis, Kindle Paperwhite
Quote:
Originally Posted by j.p.s View Post
CPU halt with RAM refresh left on describes the sleep mode of all kindles until the last few years. The newer kindles do that for about 30 minutes, then go into a state that is hibernation or very like it (save RAM and context to disk then power off).
Wow, flash is good enough now that you can swap hundreds of megs to a relatively small bit of flash just because someone left the thing turned off for half an hour, and keep it up for years?
NullNix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:58 AM   #80
rashkae
Guru
rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rashkae ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
rashkae's Avatar
 
Posts: 727
Karma: 3300987
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Device: Kobo Aura HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by NullNix View Post
Wow, flash is good enough now that you can swap hundreds of megs to a relatively small bit of flash just because someone left the thing turned off for half an hour, and keep it up for years?
I don't know how Kinde implemented this, but SLC has rated life of over 100,000 cycles, even over 1,000,000 was being advertised back in 2008. a 1 or 2 GB SLC cache would more than cover what Kindle needs to suspend for years.
rashkae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:07 PM   #81
j.p.s
Wizard
j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,142
Karma: 35109951
Join Date: Apr 2011
Device: pb360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NullNix View Post
Wow, flash is good enough now that you can swap hundreds of megs to a relatively small bit of flash just because someone left the thing turned off for half an hour, and keep it up for years?
Someone in power must have decided it was better than waiting 2 minutes for a boot.

Didn't you recently post that defragging modern flash memory doesn't cause enough wear out to be of concern?

Regarding your reply to jswolf, many ereader brands allow "complete" power down (boot required). I for one am annoyed by kindles not allowing power off. I am fine with sleep by default, but I want the option to explicitly shut the kindle down if I know I won't be using it for a while. All the theory you wrote about all the reasons lithium ion cells run down on their own aside, my non amazon readers are much easier to maintain when not in use than my kindles.

I haven't had trouble with my 7" Oasis yet. Only time will tell if its flash dies before something else. It has no option to disable deep sleep but newer kindles do. Maybe that says something.
j.p.s is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:10 PM   #82
NiLuJe
BLAM!
NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NiLuJe's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,788
Karma: 12901868
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Paris, France
Device: Kindle 2i, 3g, 4, 5w, (PW) & PW2; Kobo H2O & Forma
You'll notice that the brands that "offer" (it's often fairly non-obvious to actually achieve) a full power down happen to be ones that ship devices that don't take 7 minutes to boot .
NiLuJe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:10 PM   #83
j.p.s
Wizard
j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,142
Karma: 35109951
Join Date: Apr 2011
Device: pb360
Quote:
Originally Posted by rashkae View Post
I don't know how Kinde implemented this, but SLC has rated life of over 100,000 cycles, even over 1,000,000 was being advertised back in 2008. a 1 or 2 GB SLC cache would more than cover what Kindle needs to suspend for years.
Sure, but would amazon spring for a separate hibernation drive, much less SLC for any of the flash?
j.p.s is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:11 PM   #84
NiLuJe
BLAM!
NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NiLuJe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NiLuJe's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,788
Karma: 12901868
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Paris, France
Device: Kindle 2i, 3g, 4, 5w, (PW) & PW2; Kobo H2O & Forma
They do have a slightly funky, possibly slightly custom storage controller thingy (look for falcon in the kernel sources).
NiLuJe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:25 PM   #85
j.p.s
Wizard
j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.j.p.s ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,142
Karma: 35109951
Join Date: Apr 2011
Device: pb360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiLuJe View Post
You'll notice that the brands that "offer" (it's often fairly non-obvious to actually achieve) a full power down happen to be ones that ship devices that don't take 7 minutes to boot .
Yeah, that is a long time to wait, but if I'm not going to use it for a few weeks or months, it is a trade I'm willing to make, and it is very annoying not to have the option.

I did not like that the PB360 has no sleep option at all, but the iriver story hd, onyx m92, and kobo handle it well enough.

The sony dpt-s1 stays "on" for some generously long time, then "sleeps" for some generously long time, then powers "off". It would be nice to be able to adjust those times, but the values sony chose work well for me.
j.p.s is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Kindle 3G] No update by OTA since last firmware update THE DBX KOReader 0 07-01-2018 12:33 PM
Firmware Update Instructions and the latest Firmware Versions mitchwah Ectaco jetBook 111 10-27-2015 09:57 AM
Firmware Update Kindle 3 - Firmware update kool Amazon Kindle 89 09-14-2010 02:41 AM
Firmware Update Can't update my Kindle from 2.1.1 to firmware 2.3 gammarayburst Amazon Kindle 3 05-15-2010 09:57 AM
Firmware Update Kindle firmware update 2.3.3 available davem2bits Amazon Kindle 75 04-01-2010 11:26 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:23 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.