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Old 06-13-2018, 09:30 PM   #16
Thasaidon
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
I'm not sure that's very likely. The '<>' icon literally represents the angle brackets that are such a prominent part of html and xml code.
Sorry I just got what you meant It is dementia setting in due to old age and poverty.

I was getting the BV and CV icons mixed up. I meant the BV icon of course not the '<>' CV icon.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:25 AM   #17
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- but...

Have the spell checker highlight misspelt words in Preview (as well as Codeview). In fiction, misspellings may be deliberate, usually to convey a speakers dialect or vernacular, but that's not always obvious when reading sans-seraph fixed-width text sprinkled with xhtml tags etc.

BR

Last edited by BetterRed; 06-14-2018 at 02:28 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
It's only a question of when Book View goes away, not if. It's become a boat anchor when it comes to Sigil development. It's buggy and it's increasingly unmanagable. It's fine for everyone to bring up things they still use BV for (mainly so alternatives can be suggested), but don't get your hopes up that Book View will get a reprieve. That ship has sailed. Book View is on borrowed time.

I don't formally object to its overpressure (at worst, I wouldn't update Sigli), but this feature is really powerful.

For me BV exists for 2 reasons:
1) Accessibility and ease for neophytes. I am interested in HTML, CSS and how an ePub works, just because BV was doing strange things to me. Even if I am in favour of changing this approach and minimizing it, we must not forget it.
2) It is so much easier and more enjoyable to read and write your text when it is formatted.
And for basic and fast text editing, BV's whatever limit are not annoying.

I am not dev, but I understand that BV, as it is today, is a brake on Sigil development.
So okay, to find alternatives (the non-dev that I am would say: recoded it, (but I know it's much more complicated than that)), reduce its scope, no longer put it in as much before and make it a secondary feature.
Doing anything else, rethinking it differently, like an editable preview.

But the deleted without alternative, here's what scares me and what I object to. (preview as it already exists, is not a good alternative)
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:36 AM   #19
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Sorry. But Sigil is not going to be promoted as a WYSIWYG epub editor moving forward. Book View will be deprecated (it really already informally is deprecated) and will eventually be removed from Sigil entirely. It's just not worth the trouble it creates.

There are already way too many easy ways to get html/css into Sigil from other specialized, popular, and full-featured WYSIWYG word-processing applications to continue putting band-aids on the hobbled, buggy, crashy and ineffective WYSIWYG editor that is Sigil's Book View.

And as far as neophytes go, there already great tools (stand-alone and add-on) available for producing ePubs without having to understand html/css at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by un_pogaz View Post
Doing anything else, rethinking it differently, like an editable preview.
An "editable preview" is exactly what Book View already is. And maintaining that editable preview IS the problem/nightmare.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 06-14-2018 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:37 AM   #20
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I applaud the plan, always assuming that hyperlinks will work in Preview!
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Sorry. But Sigil is not going to be promoted as a WYSIWYG epub editor moving forward. Book View will be deprecated (it really already informally is deprecated) and will eventually be removed from Sigil entirely. It's just not worth the trouble it creates.
[...]
An "editable preview" is exactly what Book View already is. And maintaining that editable preview IS the problem/nightmare.
Oh
His reprieve already that advanced?
Okay, too bad, but I'm not going to resuscitate a dead man.

BTW, If you make the main panel switch between CodeView and Preview, would be very useful to keep the panel Preview dockable and/or floating.

Last edited by un_pogaz; 06-14-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Sorry. But Sigil is not going to be promoted as a WYSIWYG epub editor moving forward.
Thank Christ. This is indubitably one of the reasons that we get angry users here, who think it should "work like Word" (or whatever) and are sorely disappointed. The idea of a WYSIWYG ePUB editor was great, but it was, IMHO, touted entirely wrong, giving utter neophytes the idea that it was an Apple-like product, where you could drag-drop any old sh*t in, push a button, and VOILA!, insta-ePUB. We've all seen numerous posts from angry new users, and it does no one any favors.

Quote:
Book View will be deprecated (it really already informally is deprecated) and will eventually be removed from Sigil entirely. It's just not worth the trouble it creates.
True, dat.

Quote:
There are already way too many easy ways to get html/css into Sigil from other specialized, popular, and full-featured WYSIWYG word-processing applications to continue putting band-aids on the hobbled, buggy, crashy and ineffective WYSIWYG editor that is Sigil's Book View.
Yes.

Quote:
And as far as neophytes go, there already great tools (stand-alone and add-on) available for producing ePubs without having to understand html/css at all.
Well, "great" is subject to debate, but yes, they exist. While it may cut down on Sigil users, overall, it should appeal to the correct set of users--either experienced people, or those who already understand that to work in an ePUB editor, you have to have some HTML and CSS chops, or at the very least, the willingness to get under the hood and learn.


Quote:
An "editable preview" is exactly what Book View already is. And maintaining that editable preview IS the problem/nightmare.

:-) And we who merely use thank you for your pained suffering. It is appreciated enormously.

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Old 06-14-2018, 09:14 PM   #23
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:-) And we who merely use thank you for your pained suffering. It is appreciated enormously.

Hitch
Hear, Hear.

The maintainers of Sigil are worth more than their weight in gold and do not , I think, get the appreciation they deserve.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Thank Christ. This is indubitably one of the reasons that we get angry users here, who think it should "work like Word" (or whatever) and are sorely disappointed. The idea of a WYSIWYG ePUB editor was great, but it was, IMHO, touted entirely wrong, giving utter neophytes the idea that it was an Apple-like product, where you could drag-drop any old sh*t in, push a button, and VOILA!, insta-ePUB. We've all seen numerous posts from angry new users, and it does no one any favors.
Thank you for his clarification.

Personally, I never believed that Sigil would be the Word of the ePub (this role is excellently played by Jutoh)
Very quickly, I realized that if I wanted advanced formatting, I would have to get my hands on the code.
And I'm not complaining, I learned HTML and CSS to make my books look as pretty as possible, and I'm very happy about that now

BV was the ideal gateway to the heart of Sigil and the ePub: direct code editing.

The great strength Sigil was to present the 2 versions :
1) A simple and fast editor, via BV
2) A powerful and complete editor, via CV and Preview

He was the only one doing that, because the other editors are either one or the other.
I'm not saying BV is Sigil's strength.
There real strength of Sigil was to have the 2 in one software.

It is above all the loss of this versatility that saddens me.
But I understand that this versatility is too hard to maintain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Book View will be deprecated (it really already informally is deprecated) and will eventually be removed from Sigil entirely.
Ok I'll change my setup to CV+Preview to get used to it now.

PS: About the "Neophytes complainet", I sympathize with you.
But this is explained because Sigil is very popular, and especially that the communication and understanding that users outside this forum is that it a Magic insta-ePUB editor, look a Word-like.
They believe that there is deception about the product, while no, it is the communication that is false.

Last edited by un_pogaz; 06-15-2018 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:02 PM   #25
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Please don't eliminate Book View

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetterRed View Post
There has been some discussion of late regarding the exorcising of Book View. I thought it might b worthwhile to have somewhere users can document any concerns.

BR
First of all, some context: I am the author of 15 books, many of them available as e-books, and some of these I've built with Sigil. I'm also a software engineer, so working in code view is pretty natural to me. In spite of this I have always used Book View, or mostly Book View.

The case against Book View is that Sigil was never meant to be a WYSIWYG epub editor. But this misses the point entirely: Sigil is a wonderful WYSIWYG epub editor. The good people who have invested so much of their time in Sigil development (thank you, thank you) have gone to great lengths to make it so.

More important, lots of writers are not software engineers, and for them, code view is simply impossible. I would hate for Sigil to be be for coders only, since there are so many more non-coders out there.

This forum has slightly self-selected for people who are inclined to use code view. The reason for this is a tiny and easily corrected omission in the way Sigil works: There is no proper default CSS included in the package. A proper CSS would redefine <p> to look like a real book paragraph (indented, justified, serif font, no leading or trailing space, etc). If that seems a bit much to you, keep in mind that there is effectively a default CSS: i.e., the default parameters of html. It was meant for web sites and is thus entirely unsuitable for epubs. In order to make a decent epub, you have to create a CSS or borrow one from NotJohn or other providers, but either way, you have to get into the nitty gritty of CSS, and that tends to select out people who should be the natural constituency of Sigil.

I propose to weigh in a bit later with a few additional upgrades which would make Book View even better.

Please don't ditch Book View and leave the non-coders out of our Sigil World,

Tom DeMarco

Last edited by DiapDealer; 06-15-2018 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Removed irrelevant link to book
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:16 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by un_pogaz View Post
Thank you for his clarification.

Personally, I never believed that Sigil would be the Word of the ePub (this role is excellently played by Jutoh)
Very quickly, I realized that if I wanted advanced formatting, I would have to get my hands on the code.
And I'm not complaining, I learned HTML and CSS to make my books look as pretty as possible, and I'm very happy about that now
I'm not talking about you. We've seen a lotta, lotta posts from VERY unhappy cranky would-be users, over the last 8-9 years. Your experience, mostly, is what I'd wish for Sigil users--start using it, realize you have to learn the guts, and do so. That's ideal.

Quote:
BV was the ideal gateway to the heart of Sigil and the ePub: direct code editing.
Except, it's not. All BV does it allow you to type, without knowing what's happening underneath, and format italics and bold, really. I don't see the correlation to "direct code editing," really. Not arguing, just saying. Given that BV is already dead, and only kept going by life support machines, it's a moot discussion, but...

Quote:
The great strength Sigil was to present the 2 versions :
1) A simple and fast editor, via BV
2) A powerful and complete editor, via CV and Preview
And it still does. Sure, you can't or won't be able to type in Preview. But really, if you think about it, you oughtn't type in preview, so it's helping the user to learn to type in code, without thinking that every time that they touch it, it's going to explode.


Quote:
He was the only one doing that, because the other editors are either one or the other.
I'm not saying BV is Sigil's strength.
There real strength of Sigil was to have the 2 in one software.

It is above all the loss of this versatility that saddens me.
But I understand that this versatility is too hard to maintain.
I believe that the word is impossible, not simply "too hard." I am not a steely-eyed missile man programmer, but if Kevin and Diap say so, it is so.



Quote:
Ok I'll change my setup to CV+Preview to get used to it now.

PS: About the "Neophytes complainet", I sympathize with you.
But this is explained because Sigil is very popular, and especially that the communication and understanding that users outside this forum is that it a Magic insta-ePUB editor, look a Word-like.
They believe that there is deception about the product, while no, it is the communication that is false.
In fairness, no...nobody ever said it would "work like Word." Valloric said it was WYSIWYG, but the rest of the imputation was people's inferences and wishful thinking. I mean, I recall posters who got mad that you couldn't apply text formatting (beyond strong and emphasis), and other things like that.

I'd also say that Jutoh isn't Word, either--I'll NEVER understand what on earth Julian was thinking, in creating his Styles the way he did, instead of just using CSS--and it seems unnecessarily complex to me. You can be a power-user in Word, and you still have to climb the hill of Jutoh, because of the way that Julian did things. {shrug}. I guess, when you're trying to distinguish your product from Word, you gotta do something different. Every time I've tried to wrangle Jutoh, I get so infuriated with all the fooferah around the application of Styles that I get angry and toss it. I mean, sheeeze, just let me slap in a stylesheet, for the love of heaven! The whole thing about having to scroll through ninety-bajillion styles to find yours...oish. (Yes, I know, this may have changed. Dunno.)

If I were anointing that position, (Word-like ePUBmaker heir presumptive) honestly, I'd choose AWP, myself. Not perfect; but pretty damn good. In many ways, for neophytes that want Book View, AWP is really the answer.

{shrug}, offered FWIW.

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Old 06-15-2018, 12:23 PM   #27
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Tom, as I understand, part of the reason that BookView is buggy, is because of some quirks of Qt which are not going to be solve by maintainers of Qt. Even stronger, the components used for BookView are no longer available in the newer versions of Qt. As Sigil is cross-OS, there are not that many options for GUI programming, Qt is one of the view.

All in all, this causes a lot of issues. There are other options outside of Sigil. If I am allowed to tout my own horn, I have created a Word add-in (freely available) with a large number of tools that can help in ePUB creation. You can even export a Word document directly from Word, retaining the most important styling.
Just saying, use the best tools for the job. For writing, use a word processor. For ePUB creation/editing, use an ePUB editor.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camdenmaine View Post
I propose to weigh in a bit later with a few additional upgrades which would make Book View even better.
Please don't put much (if any) effort into those future posts. There will be no improvements to Book View.

We're not getting rid of it anytime soon, but make no mistake: "please don't remove Book View campaigns" are a waste of time.

Users are strongly advised (and have been for a long time) to not use Book View to make edits. It's not a question of IF doing so will bite you in the butt, it's merely a question of WHEN. That will continue to be our advice until such time as Book View is removed.

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Old 06-15-2018, 12:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Please don't put much (if any) effort into those future posts. There will be no improvements to Book View.

We're not getting rid of it anytime soon, but make no mistake: "please don't remove Book View campaigns" are a waste of time.
There's no crying in baseball eBookmaking, dammit!

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Old 06-21-2018, 03:28 PM   #30
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One other ease-of-use advantage is that the zoom slider (or Zoom Out (Ctrl+=) or Zoom In (Ctrl+-)):

Click image for larger version

Name:	PreviewNoZoomSlider.png
Views:	64
Size:	174.0 KB
ID:	164597

works in Book View, but not in Preview.

Side Note: Would also be nice if you were able to use the common Ctrl+Scroll Wheel to zoom in/out.

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 06-21-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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