Paragraph indent problem

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Just a thought ... rather than having to do a full power cycle it might be enough to page forward to the next chapter. That may force a reload of the CSS when the new chapter text file is loaded.

Some books don't have chapters!
Short stories don't usually have chapters.
Though I always have chapters.

Best workaround currently is to edit the css of the epub, rather than use Calibre's remove blank lines option. Though I don't put blank lines.

LibreOffice Writer:
I use ^$ regex to find them in source. ^[ ] finds a leading space and [ ]$ finds a trailing space. I replace all multiple spaces with a single space and never use tabs.

I stopped using MSOffice over two years ago, even before moving completely to Linux.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

Still investigating.
It's also made hard by fact that Kobo H2O seems to "remember" the old CSS if you delete and reload same title. A power cycle or reset usually updates. There must be a CSS cache?

I'm very surprised by this. I replace books frequently with changes to the CSS and have never seen this. And I have just done some experimenting and it is definitely updating here.

And reading through this thread, could you post a sample epub? Or the actual code that is a problem. You describe the problem, but, to test it, I would have to write the code myself. And I might not create the same code that you have. A sample of what you have makes sure we are all looking at the same thing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

Yes, obviously ems are best for ebooks & webpages.
However, the word processor only uses absolute (except for fonts which can be %), such as metric, imperial or points. It's not possible to specify indents in ems in the source. I do edit the styles in the source and save different versions for paperback (export PDF), Smashwords (save As .doc), Amazon (save As .doc)and Google (I edit the Smashwords ePub). The Smashwords converted ePub and Amazon mobi from .doc exported from Libre Office is fine.

There IS an option to remove blank lines and put an indent based on ems in Calibre. However that messes up some aspects. Editing the css for the body text to 1.5em is better, Calibre seems to do it to all styles.

Sometimes (whatever it is), the Kobo H2O DOES do correct indent for the body text. Note that it's not a problem on Calibre's own eReader, or on other ePub ereaders or conversion to Mobi.

So though whatever it is due to Calibre conversion, only my Kobo H2O is "sensitive" to this issue.

Indents do not go in the body style. You put an indent in the <p> style. In fact, the best thing to do is set <p> to what most paragraphs will be and do not use <p class="somestyle"> for most paragraphs. You only use a style with <p> for when you need to change the style of the paragraph such as no indent.

[Quoth]

Updated from 4.7xxxx to 4.8.11073 (b628114af7 08/05/2018) today.
Still have the problem with indent. The sort order within a series is still erratic when a title replaced or added.
The odt file converted by Calibre has correct indent on every ePub reader except the Kobo H2O (original). Most noticeable on the body text as the indent is about half what it should be (whatever it's set to).
Editing to 1.5em in CSS fixes it (indent about the same on everything).
Still there is the bug that removal of the file (either via Calibre or on the Kobo Home Screen) somehow the old css is used till a complete power cycle (or reset, easier if you have a paperclip), then the new css of the new file is used. Paging to a new chapter, marking it unread, or sleep etc doesn't "recognise" the different CSS in new file. Only reset or power cycle.

[davidfor]

Can you please post a sample file. As I said above, I am not seeing these issues, so would like to test with a book that is producing them. A screenshot or photo would also be good as that would actually show how different the book looks on different devices.

[Quoth]

It's perfect and identical on EVERYTHING with a 17pt indent set in LibreOffice Writer. Matching appearance of source text and Calibre Viewer, except on the Kobo it looks about 1/2 size. If you set to about 34pt, then it looks about right. Basically if the Calibre css has xxpt for the body text indent the appearance on the Kobo, unlike Apps, Binatone Readme, PRS350 or mobi on a Kindle is about half what it should be, i.e. xx/2


Manually setting to 1.5em (also the default offered by Calibre) in the CSS looks about right, maybe a little more than the 17pt.
You can't use "ems" in the Wordprocessor.

I'll have to chop up some files. Can't be uploading an entire book.

I've not checked other things.
I do separately have a formatting issue that is very intermittent were titles, headings, images etc supposedly central are sometimes left justified.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

It's perfect and identical on EVERYTHING with a 17pt indent set in LibreOffice Writer. Matching appearance of source text and Calibre Viewer, except on the Kobo it looks about 1/2 size. If you set to about 34pt, then it looks about right. Basically if the Calibre css has xxpt for the body text indent the appearance on the Kobo, unlike Apps, Binatone Readme, PRS350 or mobi on a Kindle is about half what it should be, i.e. xx/2


Manually setting to 1.5em (also the default offered by Calibre) in the CSS looks about right, maybe a little more than the 17pt.
You can't use "ems" in the Wordprocessor.

I'll have to chop up some files. Can't be uploading an entire book.

I've not checked other things.
I do separately have a formatting issue that is very intermittent were titles, headings, images etc supposedly central are sometimes left justified.

Again, using absolute measurements such as points is not recommended. The conversion from points to pixels all too often does not pay attention to the size of the pixels with the renderer using 12 pts is 16 pixels regardless of screen resolution. Relative measurements scale to the screen size and will look much the same regardless of whether you are using an 600 x 800 or an 1404 x 1872 screen resolution ereader.

As for uploading the book, use the ebook scrambler plugin for calibre or it's standalone cousin. See [GUI Plugin] ScrambleEbook: Getting help with copyrighted books for more information. For the standalone version, see Scrambling copyright ebooks to help troubleshoot problems ???.

[JSWolf]

All you need do is load the ePub in the Calibre editor and search/replace. Try 1.2em since you say 1.5em is too large.

[Quoth]

Yes, I have a table now of Points to Em. though it's a simple ratio.
16pt approx 1.4em
It seems points/12 = ems
Examination of text with no first line indent, but a left margin (the body text = zero margin) is also spaced half the expected distance on a Kobo compared to every other reader and app. Thus Kobo are maybe dividing points by 24 if they "really" use ems (since the fonts rescale, obviously the Kobo converts points).
All the ePubs that I have that display same on the Kobo as everything else use em for left margin or indent.
The Kobo GUI replacement for indent is too much a blunt hammer, as it will not fix margins and sets ALL < p > tag indents to same settting.
So workaround is to edit the CSS. I use the same small range of point sizes for everything so not hard.
It's annoying that:
1) The Kobo H2O obviously using the wrong factor to convert pt in CSS to whatever it really uses.
2) That Calibre doesn't convert ALL points to ems, because eBooks are basically a sort of HTML, and unlike paper or PDF, supposed to scale, which is what "em" is for.
Wordprocessors still assume paper, hence Inch/Centimetre/Points and not "em" which are not really absolute.
PDFs are the ultimate evil unless you print everything or have a mythical pull out screen that does 1/2 A4, A4 portrait, A3 landscape. Or a 19" 4K screen and a desk. PDFs invented to preview and interchange for paper output.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

Yes, I have a table now of Points to Em. though it's a simple ratio.
16pt approx 1.4em
It seems points/12 = ems

I think there is an editor that will do the conversion for you. I don't use it so I'm not sure exactly how it works.

Examination of text with no first line indent, but a left margin (the body text = zero margin) is also spaced half the expected distance on a Kobo compared to every other reader and app. Thus Kobo are maybe dividing points by 24 if they "really" use ems (since the fonts rescale, obviously the Kobo converts points).
All the ePubs that I have that display same on the Kobo as everything else use em for left margin or indent.
The Kobo GUI replacement for indent is too much a blunt hammer, as it will not fix margins and sets ALL < p > tag indents to same settting.

I don't know what you mean there. While I usually set the text indent to the same value throughout a book, I definitely have seen books with different indents. And the Kobo does respect them. And I don't know what you mean by "will not fix margins". Again, as far as I can tell, the device is respecting any margins I set. The slider in the font settings for margins works as I expect - adding more to the existing margin. I think it works more by adjusting the size of the viewport rather than fiddling with the margins in the book.

So workaround is to edit the CSS. I use the same small range of point sizes for everything so not hard.
It's annoying that:
1) The Kobo H2O obviously using the wrong factor to convert pt in CSS to whatever it really uses.

The kepub renderer does use a different factor for the font sizes than the epub renderer. If you select a font size in an epub and then open a kepub, the text will appear a lot smaller. That will probably affect anywhere that points are used for size, but it isn't something I have experimented with much.

I have to say that each time you make a statement about how this is working for you, it just makes me want to see the actual code you are using.

[rashkae]

You can't really convert pt to em though.. the absolute size of em will scale with the base font size... pt does not.

Using pt, or in, is useful when you want indents to line up regardless of font size.

On the H2O, I can confirm that 1in, or 72pt (which should also be 1 inch) both come out to somewhere around .5 in on the Kepub reader. The inch is measured out almost perectly on the epub reader, so the device knows it's own DPI. This is clearly a bug/feature of the Kepup rendering.

I really have no idea what's up with your observation of having to power off the kobo to make changes. I've *never* seen that problem. Although, since the Calibre Kobo driver goes out of it's way to prevent the Kobo from detecting when a book file has changed, I almost always delete a book directly off the kobo device itself before connecting usb to replace it.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by rashkae

I really have no idea what's up with your observation of having to power off the kobo to make changes. I've *never* seen that problem. Although, since the Calibre Kobo driver goes out of it's way to prevent the Kobo from detecting when a book file has changed, I almost always delete a book directly off the kobo device itself before connecting usb to replace it.

I added an option to the driver for this recently. If you deslect the option, it will just replace the book and let the firmware do whatever it needed to.

But, as I stated above, I have never had a problem with changes to the CSS not being seen when I resent and reopened a book. Except when I realise I forgot to save the change before resending the book. And I did that the other night when testing this. Of course, then I connected the device and forgot to send the book

[Quoth]

My conclusion is that if the css for my Kobo H2O original uses other than ems for margins, (i.e. inches or points used), then there is about a 50% mismatch between point size of text and margin, i.e, approximately first line indent on body text will be 1/2 as many characters and also all other margins that are not main body are about 1/2, such as top margin before a heading or additional indent for a block of non-body text.
It's happened some time before 4.7 firmware, I think.
Simply leaving text point sizes alone and changing left indent (and left margin of non-body text) to official ems (point size / 12) works. Half size top margins or bottom margins on headings or other non-body text isn't an issue.
It's not a Calibre conversion issue. Happens on other sources not using "ems". Obvious when comparing to other apps, Sony or Binatone ePubs. Also Mobi on three generations of kindle are as expected (1.4em approx is same as 16pt & approx 3 characters of body text indent, but on Kobo the 16pt or 0.2" is about 1.5 characters indent, 1.4em is about correct)

[Quoth]

The issue of CSS not updated on book removal and replace has gone. No need to reset/power off. Perhaps that was a driver setting in Calibre.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

The issue of CSS not updated on book removal and replace has gone. No need to reset/power off. Perhaps that was a driver setting in Calibre.

Absolutely NOT the case. In fact, absolutely impossible.