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Old 07-20-2021, 11:10 AM   #31
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...the original Star Trek. It's fairly terrible -- in my always right opinion. But I loved it as a kid...
I still enjoy the original Star Trek because it was more thoughtful than, say, Lost In Space. I appreciated Star trek because it was less worried about action and worked social issues into its storytelling. It is similar to The Twilight Zone there and I still watch both.

I haven't watched Star Trek since TNG, aside from that awful J.J. Abrams movie. Is that a good example of the state of the franchise now? Have they abandoned the cerebral stuff for Star Wars spectacle and space battles?
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Old 07-20-2021, 11:10 AM   #32
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Same with the original Star Trek. It's fairly terrible -- in my always right opinion. But I loved it as a kid because I hadn't seen the million sci fi shows and movies that were inspired by Star Trek.
Also, when you see the other shows that were airing on the three TV networks at the time, Star Trek makes a whole lot more sense.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:32 PM   #33
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I'm about a third of the way through "The Great Gatsby" (after IIRC having read it in HS almost 20 years ago) and all I can think about is that it's massively overrated
Even Hemingway, who sneered at Fitzgerald, acknowledged that he could write. I continue to love it. Mind you, I don't like Hemingway.

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Old 07-20-2021, 02:35 PM   #34
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I too used have that opinion, but after reading some analysis on it, it shows why many people still talk about TGG.

If we implement a feminist approach, we'd see how Jordan, who is an independent, and in full 1920 regalia, is described in unflattering ways. Every single woman who disrespects patriarchy comes unstuck. I'm not going to spoil it for you, but there are layers to this short book.
She was a selfish cheat from I recall.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:43 PM   #35
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The Great Gatsby and Zombies. OK.

The trouble with Gatsby is that he has no real depth. He is more of a symbol. Hence why Fitzgerald wrote from another POV. As a character, he is impossible and 2-D. Consider re-writing book from the POV of Gatsby. It would make for shallow characterization. One would have to invent a lot.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:47 PM   #36
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While there are works of HG. Wells that I like, the War of the Worlds is not one of them. Some classics _are_ massively overrated, IMHO. I think that if WotW had been written after 2000, it wouldn't even have been published...
A good example of a less than great "classic". The Spielberg movie did it justice; i.e. it was bad. I suppose what retained it in mind is the image of the tripods and heat-rays from Mars. Are some classics subjective, or simply overrated? Moby Dick has that reputation. I haven't read it. Too long and boring
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Old 07-21-2021, 06:32 PM   #37
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You guys remind me of that friend I took to see 'The Maltese Falcon' who kept laughing all the way through because 'it's so full of clichés'.
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:25 AM   #38
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She was a selfish cheat from I recall.
That's my point. Every female character who is written as independent from men is also given unflattering traits.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:10 AM   #39
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You guys remind me of that friend I took to see 'The Maltese Falcon' who kept laughing all the way through because 'it's so full of clichés'.

Some people need some learnin' before they should be allowed to see a famous movie. The filmmakers and Dashiell Hammett invented those clichés -- or perfected the ones they didn't invent. So did authors like Raymond Chandler. (Shout-out to Carroll John Daly, who is credited with writing the first hard-boiled detective story.)

In college, I once proudly showed a Raymond Chandler paperback to one of my friends. It was a newer edition with new cover art, but the cover was a tribute to pulp art. She laughed at it and said something about how it looked like trashy fiction or whatever. I tried to explain that this author is highly respected and now studied in universities, etc., etc., but I don't think she truly believed me.


I've heard that people who see the early Westerns (like the silent film The Great Train Robbery) often have the same reactions. They see them as chock full of cowboy movie clichés. Those movies invented those clichés. (Today I learned that The Great Train Robberywas made so long ago (1903) that they were not using the term "director" yet.)
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:20 AM   #40
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A work of art not connecting to you isn't necessarily overrated.

I don't enjoy Quentin Tarantino's movies. But I wouldn't say he's overrated. Just doesn't connect to me.
A good point. I'm sure there were people around when various 'classics' were written who didn't like this one or that one for various reasons. And you do see the same thing in other media like movies. Some like a given movie or genre or movie and some don't.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:23 AM   #41
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Some people need some learnin' before they should be allowed to see a famous movie. The filmmakers and Dashiell Hammett invented those clichés -- or perfected the ones they didn't invent. So did authors like Raymond Chandler. (Shout-out to Carroll John Daly, who is credited with writing the first hard-boiled detective story.)

In college, I once proudly showed a Raymond Chandler paperback to one of my friends. It was a newer edition with new cover art, but the cover was a tribute to pulp art. She laughed at it and said something about how it looked like trashy fiction or whatever. I tried to explain that this author is highly respected and now studied in universities, etc., etc., but I don't think she truly believed me.


I've heard that people who see the early Westerns (like the silent film The Great Train Robbery) often have the same reactions. They see them as chock full of cowboy movie clichés. Those movies invented those clichés. (Today I learned that The Great Train Robberywas made so long ago (1903) that they were not using the term "director" yet.)
It was also one of the first (if not the first) to actually tell a story as well I believe. Prior to that there were clips showing vehicles moving along streets, or acrobatics, or even a couple kissing, but usually no actual story being told.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:28 AM   #42
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I still enjoy the original Star Trek because it was more thoughtful than, say, Lost In Space. I appreciated Star trek because it was less worried about action and worked social issues into its storytelling. It is similar to The Twilight Zone there and I still watch both.

I haven't watched Star Trek since TNG, aside from that awful J.J. Abrams movie. Is that a good example of the state of the franchise now? Have they abandoned the cerebral stuff for Star Wars spectacle and space battles?
Original Star Trek certainly did include some commentary on social issues I agree. The civil rights movement, the apparent stand off we had with the Russians at the time, Vietnam, all those things were written into the show but were given a science fiction setting so that both entertained and made people think about the issues. Special effects technology has improved since then but having a story worth telling is still of prime importance I think.
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Old 07-22-2021, 11:19 AM   #43
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Personally, the book never did anything for me.
I always like talking to someone who is civil about shredding the merits of a classic tome. Some tomes deserve it, perhaps.

When my first (and still unpublished because it's embarrassing!) novel was being considered by Fiction Collective, one of the judges told me he loved it until he got to the ending, which he said reminded him of The Grating Gatsby. I don't mind telling you my first instinct was to grab a Ruger Speed-Six, climb to the rooftop of an Ortiz Funeral Home and deflate the tires of several fancy-schmantzy hearses tucked out back. Gatsby, you say? In a word, r-r-r-r-wh-a-a-A-A-a-a-r-r-r-uh.

That yiped, I have to bleat that, beyond the pellucid jazz-age prose that I'd never have associated with Princeton, what I've always admired about 'Gerald's famous novel is the double emotional meaning of its protag. Celebs have often compared themselves to Gatsby (the lovely Peed Iddy being a current example) because he seems to embody style and share an affinity with the reader even though anyone who's watching will realize he's vicious -- not in a natty-proto-hiphop-Iceberg way, but in a this-murderous-Bruno-ain't-the-pining-climbing-fop-oi-expected sort of way.

I've always liked protags and narratives that can be construed alternately as romantic or vile. I love stories involving characters whom certain readers can moon over while others squint and fling mental spittle.

One of my favorite moments during my brief career as a hack was when a woman approached me and said me she had read one of my stories and wanted to meet the writer because the main character was "so gentle and loving."

"That's definitely how the character sees himself," I semi-agreed. "But did you notice that he nearly raped a woman who had passed out in his apartment and then buried her in a landfill after she went to the bathroom to self-medicate away the trauma and OD'd? He does sound caring in his own head while he's doing those things, though."

So to retoin to your political theory, my good Walker, I'd say that readers who like Gatsby as a book but find nothing redeeming about the character are likely to at least appreciate the politics of the man who wrote Vapes of Graft. Whereas people who like Grabsy might entertain notions of socio-economic autonomy that put them at odds with Mr. Johb Neinstreck's beliefs.

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I really liked the Grapes of Wrath by Steinbeck though, so different strokes for different folks.
I happened to like it, too.

But what I'm more excited about is Mrs. Dalloway entering the public domain: the original psychological novel that was directly informed by Woolf's friend Lytton Strachey's translations of Freud's Six Analytical Studies -- not because of Dolorway's academic significance but because I could take a leisurely shower in Virginia Woolf's style. ("Style is rhythm," she once said).

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Old 07-24-2021, 03:53 AM   #44
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I still enjoy the original Star Trek because it was more thoughtful than, say, Lost In Space. I appreciated Star trek because it was less worried about action and worked social issues into its storytelling. It is similar to The Twilight Zone there and I still watch both.

I haven't watched Star Trek since TNG, aside from that awful J.J. Abrams movie. Is that a good example of the state of the franchise now? Have they abandoned the cerebral stuff for Star Wars spectacle and space battles?
I don't know how the original Star Trek series got in here, but I'll bite. It's always been my favorite Star Trek Series. TNG was decent, but the Original Series shined. The writing was superb in the original series. Take my favorite episode, 'City on the Edge of Forever' written by Harlan Ellison (He finally won a 2009 lawsuit to get his due credit). The show won a Hugo Award for best dramatic presentation. (The show was filmed on the set of The Andy Griffith Show.) Then there was Balance of Terror, introducing Romulans. Then there was Trouble with Tribbles, also a Hugo nominee, and edged out by the winner City on the Edge of Forever. None of the ST series have had writing as good since then.
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Old 07-24-2021, 05:18 AM   #45
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I don't know how the original Star Trek series got in here, but I'll bite. ... None of the ST series have had writing as good since then.
Two little words: "Spock's Brain."
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