Discussion: eBook Publishing Model proposals

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Um... 'cause they specialize in SF and Fantasy, and those Oprah Book Club types don't generally write in that mode.

I mean why not have a BigBaen or BaenGenPub or whatever...

There has to be some catch. Ok, there doesn't *have* to be...but I mean is Baen able to print 200K books or whatever?

And *bump* the other publishers! What *author* wouldn't want "somewhere between 10% and 25%" more money?!?!

If I was shopping a book around and some publisher was telling ME "go with us..we've got the eBook thingee and we're showing an additional X% in sales above (say) HarperCollins"...

I'd think some folks would be tappin' on Baen's door when the contracts were up elsewhere.

This really, really makes no sense

OK that's not true. If you are a writer or publisher still looking at this "uʍop ǝpısdn" ("people have it and didn't pay for it") instead of rightside up (Mo' money...gittin' PAYYYYYED, BOYEEEEEE!) then yeah, the "morality obscession" I think is a forest/trees issue.

To my eyes, from what I'm learning here, Baen is practically "printing money".

I guess money isn't everything.

Suckers

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

The iTunes model has clearly worked for Apple and for the Consumer, but it is at best arguable whether it's worked for the big record labels (they don't think so, certainly).

Setting aside, for the moment, the fact that to most all appearances, the RIAA is a bunch of gibbering idiots, bent on their own destruction by simultaneously driving away both their customers and their providers, you make an excellent point, Xenophon.

The perception that money is being lost is a big deal, and is primarily what drives a lot of the obstacles that e-books are facing. Consequently the absence of that perception, not only on the part of Baen, but also on the parts of their authors is an even bigger deal, in my estimation.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

So the Baen example is relevant because they're a publisher too. A content-provider, not a widget maker. It's an example that a Big Publisher might look at and say "They're like us. Small, but like us" instead of saying "iTunes? The content guys got screwed! I don't want that!!! "

Even with the Kindle, we have Amazon trying to act more like Apple with iTunes. And the publishers are probably quite concerned (and understandably so). I think that they're wrong to be concerned, but I understand why they would be.

Xenophon

...totally. That said, I think the world needs a $150-$200 "state-of-the-art"-esque piece of hardware to go with it.

I will say this. I can see a bit more reason behind some of the...malice of the proponents here.

On the flip, I see even less of a valid *business* argument for the types that malign the frustrated, as there is a living, breathing example of how misguided the industry at least appears to be.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Setting aside, for the moment, the fact that to most all appearances, the RIAA is a bunch of gibbering idiots, bent on their own destruction by simultaneously driving away both their customers and their providers, you make an excellent point, Xenophon.

I'm not sure that the above is the...tone...we were looking for...heheh...but you'll get no argument from me.

Originally Posted by NatCh

The perception that money is being lost is a big deal, and is primarily what drives a lot of the obstacles that e-books are facing. Consequently the absence of that perception, not only on the part of Baen, but also on the parts of their authors is an even bigger deal, in my estimation.

Yeah, I can dig it. I've said time and time again that these publishers seem to be more concerned about people that aren't their customers than those that are. It has to be the most...counterproductive...way to run a business.

But you know what? I'm starting to suspect that its NOT about business at ALL...but this may be a flaw with me being a person driven by rationality and logic.

It makes no business sense whatsoever. This leaves me to lean in the direction that the (sigh) "morality" angle...the "property fetish" is clouding their judgement.

There is no measurable business explanation for this....and if that's the case, I've really got nothing to add because I think focusing on "not business" is counterproductive the the cash.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by mrkai

Yeah, I can dig it. I've said time and time again that these publishers seem to be more concerned about people that aren't their customers than those that are. It has to be the most...counterproductive...way to run a business.

But you know what? I'm starting to suspect that its NOT about business at ALL...but this may be a flaw with me being a person driven by rationality and logic.

Personally I think that the basic motive for the publishers reluctance is that there is no external force to push them. Why rock the boat? Yeah, maybe you leave 10% of potential income, but what if you crater your business? Is it worth?

For music there was and is a HUGE external force that is pushing them, though they fight it at every step (ripping + Net), for books there are no such pressures.

Then the small imprints who are struggling are the ones trying things; again Baen was a mmpb sf house as late as 1995, and considering the collpase of that market, who knows if they would be in business today without using e-books to go to a hardcover model.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

Personally I think that the basic motive for the publishers reluctance is that there is no external force to push them. Why rock the boat? Yeah, maybe you leave 10% of potential income, but what if you crater your business? Is it worth?

...that there is no evidence t support this whatsoever. New Video Games, DVDs and CDs are released every tuesday, and like I said, I found every book from all of Baen's "Big Guns" online ready to download (in multiple formats, no less) in 5 min's time.



Seems like leaving "between 10% to 25%" more cash out based what we know as opposed to what we fear is throwing money away to me...

[igorsk]

mrkai, would you please stop putting part of your reply in the subject field? It's very disorienting, especially with the quote in between.
That said, not only it's pretty easy to find Baen books on darknet, you can actually find a lot of those sold on Webscriptions legally for free (and I don't mean the Free Library). Check this:
http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/
And still people keep buying them.
Actually Eric Flint covered a lot of what we're discussing here, including exact numbers. I highly recommend his "Salvos Against Big Brother" (start at the bottom).
http://baens-universe.com/authors/Eric_Flint

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by mrkai

...that there is no evidence t support this whatsoever. New Video Games, DVDs and CDs are released every tuesday, and like I said, I found every book from all of Baen's "Big Guns" online ready to download (in multiple formats, no less) in 5 min's time.



Seems like leaving "between 10% to 25%" more cash out based what we know as opposed to what we fear is throwing money away to me...

Completely agreed with point one above, however in all the forums I've been and where publisher representatives participate, that is what you will hear.

And similarly for authors. "What if I release this book as an e-book, and 100k people download it for free on the darknet; think how many sales I lost?" is a common refrain. That is a hard mindset to break, and only DIRE necessity (publisher going bankrupt and author in need of lots of money) forced several such authors to recant and go with drm-free e-books.

I think that only cratering p-book sales will make most publishers truly embrace e-books, and even then I expect them to fight it every step with onerous drm, high prices and the like..

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

And similarly for authors. "What if I release this book as an e-book, and 100k people download it for free on the darknet; think how many sales I lost?" is a common refrain.

I'm gonna go ahead and be less polite here.

It's retarded. Those people aren't customers, and "potential customers" is like "a little pregnant".

A person is or isn't a buyer. So put some "DRM" on the things (as opposed to DEEEARRRREMMMM...Dum Dum Duummm) and Count de Monet.

Is it really *that* hard to leap that gap for these people?! Talent and smarts...I guess they aren't necessarily a pair, eh?

Heh. Its not my money being left out there....whatever. My poor Sony Reader sits devoid of commercial books save one because of this foolishness..

Suckers.

[nekokami]

One reason I think Baen comes up so often in these conversations is that science fiction readers were ebook fans long before the rest of the population. As in, back in the days of hand-typing books and sharing them on BBS sites over 300 baud modems, and reading them on monochrome CRT screens. This is a population of readers that has shown a willingness to switch to the ebook format for a long time. I'm pleased to see romance readers and publishers joining them (even though I don't read romance myself), but I think the SF crowd will always be a bit avant garde when it comes to book reading technology. That makes them a good group to watch when trying to predict market direction.

As far as defensiveness in tone or whatever, mrkai, don't you think it's worth considering that just maybe some other folks do know a little something about the book publishing business? The success of the Baen model has been discussed at length around here. Whether you like their content lineup or not, dismissing them as a successful retailer of ebooks doesn't exactly enhance your credentials to moderate a discussion on this topic.

[Penforhire]

Yes, especially because Baen handles so much military SF and you know how we military types get...

Seriously though, you never heard of Baen? They handle David Drake, Larry Niven, Lois Bujold, Andre Norton, .... and the hits just keep on coming. Get your Sci Fi on!

[Lemurion]

Here are what I see as the keystones of a successful e-book model.

1) Price: In order for e-books to succeed they have to be priced in-line with the public's perception of the value of e-books, which appears to be approximately the same order as a mass-market paperback or slightly less. Baen sells most new releases for $6 individually and a lot of their backlist is available for $4 each as individual books. They also have a bundling program which works to get new authors out there. Ignoring the bundling as a special case, I would say that a sustainable model should be based on the idea that the purchaser of an e-book gets less than the purchaser of a p-book and so the e-book edition should always be at least a little lower than the cheapest currently available p-book.

2) Flexibility: There are a plethora of different e-book formats out there, and no one device reads all of them. This means that in order to provide service to the majority of the market a book needs to be either available in multiple formats or in a single format that can be read by all devices. It also helps to be able to change formats as one moves from one device to another. Baen and Fictionwise (with their multi-format e-books) do this well, as they allow multiple downloads of purchased books in different formats.

There are other factors such as author/book exposure and piracy , but since they are not unique to the e-book model I'm choosing not to focus on them. Many, if not most, pirated e-books derive from scans of p-books and so their availability is going to remain completely independent of any e-book distribution and publishing model under consideration.

Personally I do think Baen's model is worthy of consideration because while they do serve a niche market (Science Fiction/Fantasy) they are a major player in that market and their model has proven successful for them. It's sufficiently successful that over the last year they have added non-Baen books to their Webscriptions storefront.

One conclusion we can draw from Baen, and also Fictionwise, is that DRM is not required for profitability. This is important because DRM adds to price and reduces flexibility, which means it should not be employed unless required by the publisher.

I think a cross between Baen's and Fictionwise's models would likely be most successful, with an absolute minimum of DRM and maximum of formats.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by nekokami

As far as defensiveness in tone or whatever, mrkai, don't you think it's worth considering that just maybe some other folks do know a little something about the book publishing business? The success of the Baen model has been discussed at length around here. Whether you like their content lineup or not, dismissing them as a successful retailer of ebooks doesn't exactly enhance your credentials to moderate a discussion on this topic.

This reply makes me wonder if you read *all* of the thread before you typed it.

I know a lot of people don't and reply to the first thing that "catches" them

If you did and still found the need to give me this "wrap on the knuckles" I'd sure like to know why...

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Actually Eric Flint covered a lot of what we're discussing here, including exact numbers. I highly recommend his "Salvos Against Big Brother" (start at the bottom).
http://baens-universe.com/authors/Eric_Flint

I'm reading them now, bottom up as you suggested, but so far they aren't interesting to me yet.

Not because they lack insight. I'm one of those weird and rare people that doesn't need to read things that confirm what I believe, so the "socio-political" articles thus far seem to be "preaching to the choir" as it were.

As I also run a business, the thoughts, theories and facts about the business logic are more interesting to me, as well as the rebuttal of them, because I think they would be a more convincing argument, a "better sell" to those opposed to such business ideas because while its a "harder reality" is a "softer sell" because its one thing to call your opponent misinformed, or even misguided (which is a little harsher) but another entirely to call them "corrupt" or just plain "evil" and it make them defensive instead of engaged.

So far what I've read kind of reminds me of the Stallman Free Software Approach as opposed to the Raymond one. You don't proselytize to business Stallman style...that is how you speak to the converted

Reading on, nonetheless.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by mrkai

So far what I've read kind of reminds me of the Stallman Free Software Approach as opposed to the Raymond one. You don't proselytize to business Stallman style...that is how you speak to the converted

Reading on, nonetheless.

I've read them all. If this is the general "tone" he utilizes when trying to promote these ideas/change the system from within I can see why it may be difficult.

He's kind of mean and really snide about it all, isn't he?

How to Attract Flies, using Least-to-Most Effective Method/Bait

1. Vinegar
2. Honey
3. Fresh Ripe Bovine Excrement

The "Salvos" Series seems to be firmly pegged in Spot Number One there