Bonus is not a bonus

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by meeera

If you go strictly by that Merriam Webster definition, without a view toward etymology or context or connotation or shared meanings, a poke in the eye with a sharp stick could be a "bonus". I think we all know that words are more complicated than that.

Dictionary.com says "something extra or additional given freely"
Oxford online (free) says "an extra and unexpected advantage".

I guess Oxford really is the best!

eta: Hang on, I just did a Merriam-Webster lookup online - and it says "something good that is more than what was expected or required". Different editions?

I think most of us would agree that if someone says "you're getting a bonus", there is a reasonable expectation of the part of the listener that it will be something beneficial to them. If we go with the "unexpected extra material" definition we could say that things like advertising in TV programmes are a "bonus", which would, I suspect, be an unpopular viewpoint .

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think most of us would agree that if someone says "you're getting a bonus", there is a reasonable expectation of the part of the listener that it will be something beneficial to them. If we go with the "unexpected extra material" definition we could say that things like advertising in TV programmes are a "bonus", which would, I suspect, be an unpopular viewpoint .

By your definition, the word "bonus" should never be used, then, since it's so subjective. There is no way to guarantee that what you think of as a bonus is the same as what I think of as a bonus. For instance, I was watching a local weather forecast this morning, and the forecaster said that we would be getting a few "bonus inches of snow today". Now, for people who ski, or participate in other snow sports, it is indeed a bonus. For me, it's just a major pain to deal with.

Along the same lines, if a car dealer offers a "bonus" of heated seats it will indeed be seen as a bonus in cold climates, but as an un-needed add-on in hot climates.

So who decides whether or not something is a "bonus"? Is it the giver or the recipient?

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

By your definition, the word "bonus" should never be used, then, since it's so subjective. There is no way to guarantee that what you think of as a bonus is the same as what I think of as a bonus. For instance, I was watching a local weather forecast this morning, and the forecaster said that we would be getting a few "bonus inches of snow today". Now, for people who ski, or participate in other snow sports, it is indeed a bonus. For me, it's just a major pain to deal with.

I've given my definition. What would be yours?

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by meeera

If you go strictly by that Merriam Webster definition, without a view toward etymology or context or connotation or shared meanings, a poke in the eye with a sharp stick could be a "bonus". I think we all know that words are more complicated than that.

Dictionary.com says "something extra or additional given freely"
Oxford online (free) says "an extra and unexpected advantage".

I guess Oxford really is the best!

eta: Hang on, I just did a Merriam-Webster lookup online - and it says "something good that is more than what was expected or required". Different editions?

Etymology often creates confusion, words don't always mean the same thing as the words they are derived from. Yes, words are complicated, and that's my point. The view that in order to be a bonus it must be good for all is a simplistic view.

The top definition of bonus on Merriam-Webster is
: something good that is more than what was expected or required

If you look down a couple lines there is

Full Definition of BONUS
: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due

Of course, virtually no one would consider a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to be a bonus, I'm not suggesting they would. However, getting an excerpt is hardly the same as getting a sharp stick in the eye. Whether an excerpt is good is a matter of opinion, and something can only be a lie if we are dealing with a matter of fact.

We've really gotten away from the meaning of "bonus" to the meaning of "good". Not all good things are of use or interest to everyone. A sample of Cascade is useless to me as I don't have a dishwasher. Does that mean it isn't a bonus? If things are only bonuses if everyone wants them they word is rendered useless. The prize in a box of Cracker Jack isn't much of a prize, but is it a lie to call it one? A parka isn't of use to someone on a beach in Hawaii, but that doesn't mean it isn't good, there are people who might find that parka quite useful. Free tickets to a movie you don't want to see aren't as much use, but you have something that someone might reasonably want. I'll agree that a sharp stick in the eye doesn't qualify as a bonus, it has to be something that a reasonable person might want. An excerpt is really no different than a parka or movie tickets, some people might want it, others might not. That doesn't mean it isn't good.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

We've really gotten away from the meaning of "bonus" to the meaning of "good". Not all good things are of use or interest to everyone.

I think we would probably all agree that, for example, extra money in your pay packet is an example of the sort of "bonus" that we would accept as being good. What's less obvious is whether a "bonus chapter" of the next book in the series at the end of the current book really qualifies as a "bonus" in the accepted sense of the word, or is it really just advertising?

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I've given my definition. What would be yours?

The full definition from Websters: "something in addition to what is expected or strictly due"

I gave two examples of the word being used in a way that coincides with my definition, but not with yours.

Shari

[Catlady]

While the intent of including an excerpt from another book may be to advertise that book, I think it's not quite accurate to call it advertising. Ten pages of praise and blurbs promoting a book, for example, would be advertising; that is not the same thing as ten pages of text from that book. An excerpt is a bonus.

Definition of bonus from Merriam-Webster's 11th:

something in addition to what is expected or strictly due: as a : money or an equivalent given in addition to an employee's usual compensation b : a premium (as of stock) given by a corporation to a purchaser of its securities, to a promoter, or to an employee c : a government payment to war veterans d : a sum in excess of salary given an athlete for signing with a team

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think we would probably all agree that, for example, extra money in your pay packet is an example of the sort of "bonus" that we would accept as being good. What's less obvious is whether a "bonus chapter" of the next book in the series at the end of the current book really qualifies as a "bonus" in the accepted sense of the word, or is it really just advertising?

We can agree that extra money in the paycheck would be more universally desired than an excerpt at the end of a book. That the excerpt is advertising is immaterial to whether it is a bonus. A sample of Cascade is advertising, yet few would hesitate to call it a bonus.

What is not obvious is that an excerpt is not a bonus. It seems to be a bonus in the same sense that a packet of Cascade is a bonus. Some people will want the sample of Cascade, others will not. Similarly, some people will want the excerpt. In the days before e-books, excerpts were of more value, because you couldn't simply download a sample. Yet being of less vaue doesn't mean that it is of no value.

In order for the claim that it is a lie to call an excerpt a bonus it must be a fact that an excerpt is not a bonus. A difference of opinion does not constitute a lie. a The Arby's sign says "Arby's Roast Beef is Delicious." I don't agree that it is. However, other people do find it delicious. If the sign said "Arby's Roast Beef is Vegan", then it would be a lie.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Merriam Webster defines "bonus" as "something in addition to what is expected or strictly due", which perfectly well describes an excerpt. The word bonus does derive from a Latin word meaning "good", but it's origins don't matter. You could only say that calling an excerpt a bonus is a lie is if it is objectively not a bonus, not subjectively.

The Oxford Dictionary defines a bonus as Something welcome and often unexpected that accompanies and enhances something that is itself good and an excerpt is not welcome, does not enhance, and is not good. So in this case, it's not a bonus because it's not welcome, does not enhance, and is not good.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

In order for the claim that it is a lie to call an excerpt a bonus it must be a fact that an excerpt is not a bonus. A difference of opinion does not constitute a lie. a The Arby's sign says "Arby's Roast Beef is Delicious." I don't agree that it is. However, other people do find it delicious. If the sign said "Arby's Roast Beef is Vegan", then it would be a lie.

I certainly wouldn't accept that it's a "lie". All I'm saying personally (and I hope this is something we could all agree on ) is that opinions are going to differ about whether or not the book "gains" from including the extra material.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think most of us would agree that if someone says "you're getting a bonus", there is a reasonable expectation of the part of the listener that it will be something beneficial to them. If we go with the "unexpected extra material" definition we could say that things like advertising in TV programmes are a "bonus", which would, I suspect, be an unpopular viewpoint .

If we go with unexpected extra materiel. then TV commercials cannot be a bonus as we expect them. Also, a bonus that's advertised as a bonus cannot be a bonus as we expect it.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The Oxford Dictionary defines a bonus as Something welcome and often unexpected that accompanies and enhances something that is itself good and an excerpt is not welcome, does not enhance, and is not good. So in this case, it's not a bonus because it's not welcome, does not enhance, and is not good.

It is only your opinion that excerpts are not welcome. It is only your opinion that excerpts do not enhance. It is only your opinion that excerpts are not good. Your opinion doesn't make it fact. You may not welcome them, but this doesn't mean others do not. You may not find them to be an enhancement, but this doesn't mean that others do not. You may not find them good, but that doesn't mean that others do not. If you were correct, then anyone who welcomes excerpts is wrong to welcome them, anyone who finds them to be an enhancement is wrong, and anyone who finds them to be good is wrong. Other people just might like different things than you do.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

It is only your opinion that excerpts are not welcome. It is only your opinion that excerpts do not enhance. It is only your opinion that excerpts are not good. Your opinion doesn't make it fact. You may not welcome them, but this doesn't mean others do not. You may not find them to be an enhancement, but this doesn't mean that others do not. You may not find them good, but that doesn't mean that others do not. If you were correct, then anyone who welcomes excerpts is wrong to welcome them, anyone who finds them to be an enhancement is wrong, and anyone who finds them to be good is wrong. Other people just might like different things than you do.

But all it takes is one person and it's no longer a bonus. If they just called it an excerpt instead of a bonus, like it or not, it would be correct.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But all it takes is one person and it's no longer a bonus. If they just called it an excerpt instead of a bonus, like it or not, it would be correct.

If you were correct, then bonuses would not exist at all, as there is nothing that everyone would agree was welcome, enhancing and good.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

If you were correct, then bonuses would not exist at all, as there is nothing that everyone would agree was welcome, enhancing and good.

...and this was my point. If the word "bonus" is so subjective that one person's opinion can turn it from fact to lie, then the word should NEVER be used, because I don't think there will ever be a time that everyone agrees on something.

Shari