Line Break Madness on Nook

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AuthorGreg

My last message didn't make it up. Oh well.

Anyway, this is from the Nook Press formatting guide:

VIII. CSS/Fonts

When defining styles in the CSS, margins should be set as “pixels”, not “ems”, or “% of ems”. This will optimize the viewing area regardless of selected font or type size.

So I'm going to follow that route.

G

Yes, that is the preferred way to do margins because if you do it as % or em, you have variable width margins. px does give you fixed size margins.

It is indents that never should be in px. em is best for indents such as 1.2em (what I prefer).

[AuthorGreg]

It's taking a long time for changes to propagate. My latest upload still hasn't updated. I hope by tomorrow to see if the problem was fixed by that.

This trial and error stuff is fun. Time consuming, but fun. I just hope the process bears fruit.

G

[AuthorGreg]

JS,

Have you designed any eBooks I could buy and examine? I want to learn this stuff, and I'm not going to do that by relying on Nook Press. You seem to know how to write code that defeats their ePub processor's efforts to frustrate intelligent ePub design.

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Greg

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AuthorGreg

JS,

Have you designed any eBooks I could buy and examine? I want to learn this stuff, and I'm not going to do that by relying on Nook Press. You seem to know how to write code that defeats their ePub processor's efforts to frustrate intelligent ePub design.

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Greg

I've never created an ePub for sale. I have modified a number of ePub due to publishers poor formatted/poor code and I have created some ePub that I've posted here on MR in the library.

I'll see what I can dig up that looks good for you to have a look at.

[AuthorGreg]

Every book I get that is properly formatted is either DRM'ed or stored in a directory on the Simple Touch that is apparently hidden.

The Prince and the Pauper ePub is useless to me, because side-loading isn't revealing the issues I'm encountering. It is AFTER Nook Press processes it.

Thanks for any help,

Greg

p.s. I've solved all the problems EXCEPT for the unwanted line breaks between P elements. If I can just nail that down I can mercifully end this thread.

[AuthorGreg]

Still have line break issues between ALL p elements on the Nook. Top margins are also collapsed, in much the same way bottom margins were collapsed before.

This time I've zeroed everything out and have resorted to padding-top instead.

Is there really NO ONE else with this same problem? I'll keep trying stuff, but man is this getting frustrating....

G

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

That's the most probable reason, as others here wrote having no issues with it too. The real users do maintenance on their devices.
Some guy being told to: "unpack and mount the demo units" will most likely not care or know or - worst case - be told by the boss not to "waste time" on them.

There are an unfortunate number of things this could be. In no particular order:

1. When you uploaded your book at NookPress, I assume you told it to "use original file," rather than the uploaded "manuscript?" If you didn't, NookPress overrides your stylesheet with their own.
2. Were the Nooks at the stores HD's, by any chance? If so, the HD's will override your stylesheet whether you like it or not.
3. As someone else said, whether or not the devices in the store were a) set to allow you to select publisher settings or not, can be an issue, or, b) updated with the lastest upgrade, can be an issue.

Lastly, when you talk about "even" verso/recto (left/right) pages in print, that's called "squaring the page." That's achieved through line kerning (adding/removing small spaces between letters, which is changing font-spacing), leading (changing the vertical space between lines), and, if the issue is more than a few words, having the author rewrite/edit. The latter--editing out X characters--is far more common than you think.

Now, that being said, squaring the page isn't as de rigueur as once it was. It's also utterly impossible in eBooks, and investing a lot of time doing it, particularly just for a single app, is, well...a giant waste of time.

So: any answers for us on 1 or 2, above?

Thanks,
Hitch

[AuthorGreg]

Hello Hitch,

On Number 1, I select: "The original ePub file that I uploaded." The other option is "The version that I edited in the Manuscript Editor." So I'm a bit confused, because you say I should not use the "uploaded manuscript." Did you mean to say the "edited manuscript?"

On Number 2, the HD's and the Nook Simple Touch's both blow out the formatting. Again, though, if I select "Publisher Defaults," everything is fine. But I suspect 90% or more of readers don't even know that's an available option, and if they do, they're probably not using it.

The Nook Press "Nook Previewer" is, I believe, just a straight web browser. It is not really a "previewer" at all. It will not show you what the readers will actually see.

What I don't understand is why this book renders PERFECTLY when I sideload the ePub, but gets mangled after it is processed by Nook Press. What motive could they possibly have for altering an ePub that has passed validation?

Ugh!

Thanks,

Greg

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AuthorGreg

Hello Hitch,

On Number 1, I select: "The original ePub file that I uploaded." The other option is "The version that I edited in the Manuscript Editor." So I'm a bit confused, because you say I should not use the "uploaded manuscript." Did you mean to say the "edited manuscript?"

On Number 2, the HD's and the Nook Simple Touch's both blow out the formatting. Again, though, if I select "Publisher Defaults," everything is fine. But I suspect 90% or more of readers don't even know that's an available option, and if they do, they're probably not using it.

The Nook Press "Nook Previewer" is, I believe, just a straight web browser. It is not really a "previewer" at all. It will not show you what the readers will actually see.

What I don't understand is why this book renders PERFECTLY when I sideload the ePub, but gets mangled after it is processed by Nook Press. What motive could they possibly have for altering an ePub that has passed validation?

Ugh!

Thanks,

Greg

Hi, Greg:

Quite simply, Number 2 is your answer. That's why your book looks like kaka on the devices at the store. That's it. Not a damn thing in the world you (or anyone else) can do about it. B&N's hubris is never-endingly amazing. They override everything, and you're stuck with the results. And, you're right--most users have no idea how to select "use Publisher defaults."

Yes, on your #1 I meant, "Original ePUB file I uploaded," otherwise (overrides!!!), Nook will insert a stylesheet that overrides your stylesheet. Ostensibly, this is for the LITB (Read online), but it's not--I've seen a boatload of other styles in there unrelated to it. We had a client whose books were RUINED--all the links broken, all the footnotes destroyed--because of B&N's overrides, which seems to be some bastardized use of the Calibre CL program, as near as I can tell, because it didn't just use a different stylesheet, it actually changed the filestructure of the ePUB (hence, breaking the footnotes).

So: that's all it is. It's the Publisher's defaults problem, specifically on the HD, too.

Hope that helps. Don't pull your hair out--there's nothing you can do about it. I usually recommend that our clients consider a line on the copyright page, or whatever, saying "if you're reading this on a Nook, please select "Publisher Defaults" for the best reading experience," or words to that effect.

{sigh}. Barnes & Noble. I am always amazed at their behavior, no matter what it is. No sideloading (for testing) to NookKids' apps; overriding the book uploads at NookPress; the HD overriding the formatting and fonts, no matter WHAT is selected...it's just endless.

Hitch

[AuthorGreg]

I appreciate your passion, Hitch. Lord knows Barnes & Noble and Nook Press drive me up a tree. I've about decided to go exclusive with Amazon again, except for the part about giving eBooks away for free.

Anyway, given that I'm about to throw in the towel here, I do have one question: How come some books DO have proper formatting? Are those just accidents? I'm beginning to think they are, except the Big 6 do seem to know something we don't, because every Big 6 book on the Nook I have doesn't have spurious line breaks.

Greg

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AuthorGreg

I appreciate your passion, Hitch. Lord knows Barnes & Noble and Nook Press drive me up a tree. I've about decided to go exclusive with Amazon again, except for the part about giving eBooks away for free.

Anyway, given that I'm about to throw in the towel here, I do have one question: How come some books DO have proper formatting? Are those just accidents? I'm beginning to think they are, except the Big 6 do seem to know something we don't, because every Big 6 book on the Nook I have doesn't have spurious line breaks.

Greg

Greg:

Generally, the answer is the simplicity of the formatting, or whether or not (like Amazon's "White Glove" service) they had B&N do the formatting *for* them. Many use a simple, default CSS. I wish I could assist you more, but I can't answer the "inner workings" of B&N's mind, it's too murky in there.

BTW, you have zero obligation to "give" your books away on KDP Select, you know that, right?

P.S.: are you still trying to use W&O?

Hitch

[AuthorGreg]

Oh, I know I don't have to. I've done it before, and I found giving away books to be a singularly unrewarding experience.

It makes sense, I suppose, that B&N would relieve the Big 6 publishers of the headaches we indie authors experience. It isn't fair, but the world isn't either.

It takes 24 hours for changes to propagate on B&N's site. If I don't have this figured out by Wednesday, I'm withdrawing my works. I'm sure that'll put B&N at DefCon 5. Anyway, if I find something that works, I'll post it here.

Thanks!

Greg

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AuthorGreg

Oh, I know I don't have to. I've done it before, and I found giving away books to be a singularly unrewarding experience.

It makes sense, I suppose, that B&N would relieve the Big 6 publishers of the headaches we indie authors experience. It isn't fair, but the world isn't either.

It takes 24 hours for changes to propagate on B&N's site. If I don't have this figured out by Wednesday, I'm withdrawing my works. I'm sure that'll put B&N at DefCon 5. Anyway, if I find something that works, I'll post it here.

Thanks!

Greg

No need to withdraw. I thing the suggestion of putting in a note to turn on the publisher's default on a nook eInk Reader is a very good idea. Also, don't forget you can also submit your book to Kobo.

[AuthorGreg]

Well, indie authors get knocked so much for putting out crap, yet when one tries to do things the right way (as far as formatting is concerned) Barnes & Noble is at the head of the line to throw a wrench in the works, while offering ZERO support. And they wonder why they're losing market share on a daily basis.

Paul Salvette gave me some code to try. I'll find out in the morning if it works. I'll think about that instruction for readers, but I'd really like to learn the secret of a well formatted Nook Book. It has to be out there somewhere.

G

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AuthorGreg

Well, indie authors get knocked so much for putting out crap, yet when one tries to do things the right way (as far as formatting is concerned) Barnes & Noble is at the head of the line to throw a wrench in the works, while offering ZERO support. And they wonder why they're losing market share on a daily basis.

Paul Salvette gave me some code to try. I'll find out in the morning if it works. I'll think about that instruction for readers, but I'd really like to learn the secret of a well formatted Nook Book. It has to be out there somewhere.

G

Well, Paulie has some good code, but without seeing your entire CSS sheet, it's a bit hard to know what's what. I mean...the "cascading" part can really bite you in the butt, but the big issue here is you don't really have a reliable control for your experiment.

IIRC, you had a top-margin for your first paras (or was that a bottom-margin for your chapter heads? Something along those lines), and no margin between, but you did have widows and orphans, at least for some period of time. Do you still have W&O still set, somehow? In a div, perhaps, or the body?

Hitch