Errors due to format conversion - publisher's responsibility?

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A lot of eBooks start out as PDF. So yes, the conversion process can and does introduce errors.

I just purchased books 1 and 2 of a trilogy that languished as two books for quite a long time. As the manuscript for book 3 was lost, the owner of the franchise commissioned another author to re-write the final book in the trilogy. This ebook I purchased through Amazon

The only ebook version of books 1 and 2 I could source were PDF ebooks officially sold by RPGNow, consisting of scans of original paperback. I had expected to convert the PDF's to ePUB and read the two books on my ereader, but now have to do some interesting multipart conversions to get to a useable format.

I am nearly there. Calibre can convert a CBZ file to ePUB, so that is the path I believe should work. Failing that I will have to read them on my iPAD as PDF.

So I cannot really blame the publisher for this, though it is a pity they were scanned images and not properly formatted as text.

[Krystl]

Hi. Ok. I am trying to get my mind around all of this.

The obvious answer to me seems to be the publisher--that is their job. The author writes the book and the publisher publishes: makes it available to the public including editing, typesetting, marketing, etc. Put it that way and the "big publishers" could really make a name for having the best, cleanest, easiest read ebook conversions. I would be willing to pay well for that.

But then Anamadoll threw a thought in that I don't understand. Doesn't epub = epub no matter where it is sold? Why should the epubs of smashwords be different? I guess I am completely confused now. I guess I just assumed that the data file/ebook would be offered to be sold through a third party and they would not touch the file if not necessary.

confused.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Krystl

But then Anamadoll threw a thought in that I don't understand. Doesn't epub = epub no matter where it is sold? Why should the epubs of smashwords be different? I guess I am completely confused now. I guess I just assumed that the data file/ebook would be offered to be sold through a third party and they would not touch the file if not necessary.

The ePubs at Smashwords will be different because (currently) the only way to submit a book to Smashwords is as a Word .doc file. Smashwords then use a process known as "Meatgrinder" to convert that source file to ePub, Mobi, PDF and several other formats.

There's currently no way to upload an ePub file directly to Smashwords.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

[Krystl]

Thanks Avantman, actually, it does. I am learning so much here! I just think it is "weird" and I guess I can understand publishers' frustrations better. And it does make the thread not so "black/white".

The boundry between "publisher" and "retailer" seems to be fuzzing out. But I guess I would have to say that the retailers are then responsible--they are not publishers and keep costs down by using automation and no live (human) proofing. That is unfortunate, as a) machines cannot 100% replace humans (but are great aids) and b) if there is a flawless text made available I want that one--and not a "meatgrinder" and yes I would be willing to pay more for the work involved. Imagine Amazon deciding to print every copy of pb instead of using the professionally edited and typeset printed books--there is no way that would fly.

sigh. what is the world coming to? Quantity over quality?

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Krystl

Thanks Avantman, actually, it does. I am learning so much here! I just think it is "weird" and I guess I can understand publishers' frustrations better. And it does make the thread not so "black/white".

To be honest, I still think it's the publisher's responsibility to ensure the end result is up to a reasonable standard. As I said before, if they can't do that, they can either choose not to use that retailer, or mention the issues in the description so that buyers know what they're getting.

Originally Posted by Krystl

The boundry between "publisher" and "retailer" seems to be fuzzing out. But I guess I would have to say that the retailers are then responsible--they are not publishers and keep costs down by using automation and no live (human) proofing. That is unfortunate, as a) machines cannot 100% replace humans (but are great aids) and b) if there is a flawless text made available I want that one--and not a "meatgrinder" and yes I would be willing to pay more for the work involved.

In the case of Smashwords, they are a retailer and distributor for independent authors. I suspect they chose to have an automated conversion from Word files to make it easier for people to publish on their platform. There is no reason why a human can't proof-read the output, and in fact, Smashwords encourage authors to do exactly that. I've got books on Smashwords that I had to tweak and submit several times in order to get an output that I was happy with.

Also, Smashwords are planning to introduce "Smashwords Direct" later this year, which will allow authors to upload ePub and other formats directly, bypassing meatgrinder.

[Rob Lister]

@Russell,

I'm kinda interested in exactly what type of errors you found in the book. You wrote in the OP that they were not OCR.

I find myself sitting on the fence in terms of whose responsibility it is unless I know what types of errors you found.

dash v. emdash?
teh v. the?
be v. he?
Centering?
Underlining?
Bolding?
Emphasis?
font changes?
heading changes?
tables?
images?

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

@Russell,

I'm kinda interested in exactly what type of errors you found in the book. You wrote in the OP that they were not OCR.

I find myself sitting on the fence in terms of whose responsibility it is unless I know what types of errors you found.

I didn't specify because I'm interested in opinions on the issue generally, not just in reference to this particular instance. However, since you ask, the errors are listed here. None of them are related to formatting, they're all spelling or grammatical errors.

I should note that the possibility of the errors being due to conversion issues was mentioned before the person I was in contact with had seen the errors. She wasn't trying to say that these errors were due to the conversion, just pointing out that conversions can lead to errors.

[Krystl]

@avantman

thank you for the clarifications they really help. for me, it seems that Smashwords, etc. offer both retail and "self-publishing" and that is what confused me. Self publishing is different to me than going through a publishing house for that very reason. I admire those who are publishing and am also happy that they (Smashwords) are realizing the limitations and working on offering the authors the ability to control their art from beginning to end if they have the capabilities instead of insisting on their "conversion program".

@rob

good question. I am looking forward to the answers.

[Rob Lister]

Originally Posted by avantman42

I didn't specify because I'm interested in opinions on the issue generally, not just in reference to this particular instance. However, since you ask, the errors are listed here. None of them are related to formatting, they're all spelling or grammatical errors.

I should note that the possibility of the errors being due to conversion issues was mentioned before the person I was in contact with had seen the errors. She wasn't trying to say that these errors were due to the conversion, just pointing out that conversions can lead to errors.

A casual scan convinces me that the errors are the responsibility of the holder of the copyright, i.e., probably the author. There is nothing the publisher can do if the author won't cooperate. I would avoid the author, not the publisher, assuming the publisher offers copy-editing services.

ETA: on further reflection, I might well avoid the publisher as well but haven't we all complained about publishers being 'gatekeepers' insomuch as they don't publish what they consider to be unworthy authors. This seems like an example of an unworthy author. I'm nnot sure i'd sully the name of my publishing house with his excrement.

[osnova]

If the issue is formatting errors (not OCR errors), there might be a justification for the publisher's position (I am not saying that there is in this particular case). Hear me out.

A good publisher (such as OSNOVA) creates a file in either Mobipocket or the new KF8 format and tests it on the available devices to make sure that there are no issues. Then the publisher uploads this "good" file to Amazon. Amazon then re-converts that file on their end without participation or any say of the publisher. In most instances no errors are introduced by Amazon's conversion. However, there might be instances when Amazon's conversion could introduce the errors. Alternatively, Amazon may introduce software bugs into Kindle software. The only solution for the publisher in that case is to take the book down.

For instance, OSNOVA Bible publications worked marvelously on all Kindles and Kindle apps. Then Amazon updated their Kindle app for iOS (iPhones and iPads), which had a new bug. All OSNOVA Bible publications started to crash the new Kindle app because the app could not process one specific html tag. Although it was "Amazon's fault," people blamed us. We had to figure out a workaround solution just to keep this bug at bay. Until we found a work-around, we didn't take down the book because it worked well on all other Kindles and Kindle apps except for Kindle for iOS.

Over the years, we have come across a number of software bugs in Kindles (one weird one in Kindle 3 caused a hyperlink end up in the wrong place with certain but not all font sizes). Not one of the bugs that we reported to Amazon was fixed by them.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by avantman42

In the case of Smashwords, they are a retailer and distributor for independent authors. I suspect they chose to have an automated conversion from Word files to make it easier for people to publish on their platform. There is no reason why a human can't proof-read the output, and in fact, Smashwords encourage authors to do exactly that. I've got books on Smashwords that I had to tweak and submit several times in order to get an output that I was happy with.

Also, Smashwords are planning to introduce "Smashwords Direct" later this year, which will allow authors to upload ePub and other formats directly, bypassing meatgrinder.

I can't talk about Smashwords without getting emotional because I am a software programmer and it is my personal belief that their current system is UNUTTERABLY STUPID because omg, Smashwords, you are telling me that it is easier to get a clean Word file than a clean ePUB, do you even know the first thing about .doc files and additionally your style guide is the worst user manual I have ever read to the point that -- as someone who writes user manuals for a living -- it actually OFFENDS me, and ahem. *embarrassed software engineer geekery*

Smashwords has been saying they're going to allow a meatgrinder bypass for years, so I'm cautiously optimistic. The problem is not with expecting the user to read the file after conversion -- the problem is that there's not a post-conversion tweaking option. That is SERIOUS.

Any system where the only possible way to change the output is to change the input is a bad system. And I write transforms for a living (and user manuals for them). That is the FIRST rule of transforms: if you cannot tweak the output, no matter what, come hell or high water, then your system is fundamentally broken.

[Rob Lister]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I can't talk about Smashwords without getting emotional because I am a software programmer and it is my personal belief that their current system is UNUTTERABLY STUPID because omg, Smashwords, you are telling me that it is easier to get a clean Word file than a clean ePUB, do you even know the first thing about .doc files and additionally your style guide is the worst user manual I have ever read to the point that -- as someone who writes user manuals for a living -- it actually OFFENDS me, and ahem. *embarrassed software engineer geekery*

You shouldn't be so shy. Open up and tell us how you really feel.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

You shouldn't be so shy. Open up and tell us how you really feel.

You need some karma, sir.

[JSWolf]

I don't buy from Smashwords because I do sometimes like to tweak the ePub to how I like it and when I look at the code and the amount of work a lot of the books require, I just don't want to do it and thus, I don't read them.

The code (under the hood) is akin to taking a steak dinner with mashed potato, corn on the cob, gravy, and chocolate cake for dessert and putting it all in a blender, blending it till it liquifies and then being given it in a glass with a straw.

If you ever see a style called msonormal. RUN AWAY because Word was involved.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

A casual scan convinces me that the errors are the responsibility of the holder of the copyright, i.e., probably the author.

The author is Naomi Novik, the publisher is Voyager, a HarperCollins imprint. My understanding is that one of the publisher's roles is to edit the manuscript before it gets published. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a novel-length manuscript will need editing before it is exposed to public scrutiny. I've never written anything of any length that didn't include some stupid typos.

According to this article, e-books don't get as much editing as paper books. I had assumed that the errors I found were due to that, and that they weren't present in the paper copy. However, I've now got a paper copy, and a quick check reveals that at least three of the errors are present in the paper copy as well.

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

There is nothing the publisher can do if the author won't cooperate. I would avoid the author, not the publisher, assuming the publisher offers copy-editing services.

I admit I don't know much about publishing contracts, but I'd be amazed if the contract meant that an author could insist on an unedited manuscript being published.