PDF is not an eBook format

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

To me, "selling" an eBook in a non-transformable format is almost as bad a putting DRM on it. Almost all the same restrictions are there.

I see you're point, but I find it less compelling than you seem to.

PDF isn't going away totally any time soon, it's too widely used, so it's about as permanent as you can get for these things. An unlocked PDF lets me move it around and use it as I please, so I can keep it regardless of what my hardware does.

About the only thing I can't do with it is easily pull the contents out. Yes, that's not a good thing, but it's largely the same for most widely used formats out there, so it's not like it's uniquely malicious or anything.

If a "publishers" criteria is to reach as many people as they can, without requiring those folks to jump through lots of hoops and to make their "book" as portable as possible, it's hard to blame them for looking at unsecured PDF. You really have to dig into things to find the drawbacks, and that sort of minutia isn't the sort of thing "publishers" tend to be good at.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that PDF isn't the best format for anything except its designed purpose (that being preservation of document formatting/layout and contents across platforms), but I just cannot agree with you that choosing it can only be interpreted as a sign that the "publisher" is specifically and expressly out to screw over his customers.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

To state something as fact, as you have attempted to do here, needs more testing, and more information about the variables tested.

Hmmm... So, doing a test, publishing the method and results means "needs more testing" especially when other people see similar results?

If you wish to keep testing, that's fine. But as far as I am concerned, it's a fact that PDF is a bloated format.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

But the fact remains that PDF is a everywhere and many times, it is the only electronic format that one can get books in.

Officially. There are many unofficial sources.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

Our discussion may be about PDF but how can one talk about PDF files without talking about software?

Because PDF does not equal Acrobat and many eBooks are not read on devices supported by Adobe.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

Just because other software vendors and companies that have produced electronic reading devices do not capitalize on this functionality does not mean it does not exist or that the file format is inferior.

Back to my statement about a feature that no one knows exists doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

Oh, now you are talking about hacking the files! Something the average reader probably isn't even concerned with doing. Again, I state, "if Adobe wants to lock down the file to protect their intellectual property, that's certainly up to them."

So you are asserting that when I create an eBook in PDF that it becomes Adobe's "intellectual property". Interesting view.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

Failed in what ways? Have you even read a tagged PDF file on a handheld? How can you make such a global statement as this?

No. Because none of the PDFs that I had were tagged and were unreadable on my PDA. Even if it was tagged, 2.4MB is far too bloated a file to put on my PDA when I can put a 300K file on instead and get exactly the same functionality.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

No, not the smallest - the largest - especially for tagged PDFs.

But I just tried out the tagged PDF I created and, voila!, it does resize and reflow nicely in xpdf. Wow! It works exactly the same as the Mobipocket version - at 6 times the size.

To be blunt... so what?

People load and play entire multi-gig movies onto PDAs today. Processors are faster and meaner than they were just a few years ago. Today's SW and HW can handle larger files. Who's sweating about the size of a PDF file, really?

By that logic, the only "viable" e-book format is the single format that generates the smallest files... all others suck eggs. I just don't accept that as a good reason to beat on PDFs.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

To be blunt... so what?

Have you been reading the thread about people wanting all their content on their device? If I can use a format that allows me to put 6 times as much content in the same space... yea, I'm choosing the more compact format.

BOb

[NatCh]

I've got a whole list of reasons I prefer other formats over PDF long before I get anywhere near file size.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

People load and play entire multi-gig movies onto PDAs today. Processors are faster and meaner than they were just a few years ago. Today's SW and HW can handle larger files. Who's sweating about the size of a PDF file, really?

What PDAs are you using? No PDA that I've seen can handle multi-gig movies.

If you are talking about the media devices that are out there, yes. They can handle large files - and are very poor for eBook reading and their PDF readers are even worse than the current crop of eBook devices. Oh, and did I mention that with all that extra hardware their battery life is about 3 hours?

[NatCh]

On memory cards, perhaps?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by NatCh

On memory cards, perhaps?

Exactly. Put your files on a memory card, and you can play them on most PDAs. I do this now, with books and movies (my new iPaq 110 handles movies worlds better than my Toshiba e330 did).

Sure, I realize people would like to carry all their files on one device... heck, so would I! (But I'll point out, we're not in that thread... ) If you don't have the option of carrying memory cards with you, smaller files are clearly the way to go, forget the PDFs (and leave the movies at home, too).

But if your device includes a case that can carry even a few SD cards, for instance, you're talking about being able to take gigs of files with you. My PDA case carries a 2GB and 4GB card, so I have 6GB+ of storage space while on the move. That'll hold most of the docs on my PC's hard drive! And in that case, a 2MB PDF file is no worry.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Exactly. Put your files on a memory card, and you can play them on most PDAs. I do this now, with books and movies (my new iPaq 110 handles movies worlds better than my Toshiba e330 did).

it really handles movies coded with such high bit rate that the size of one movie is multi-gig?

[ProfJulie]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Exactly. Put your files on a memory card, and you can play them on most PDAs. I do this now, with books and movies (my new iPaq 110 handles movies worlds better than my Toshiba e330 did).

Sure, I realize people would like to carry all their files on one device... heck, so would I! (But I'll point out, we're not in that thread... ) If you don't have the option of carrying memory cards with you, smaller files are clearly the way to go, forget the PDFs (and leave the movies at home, too).

But if your device includes a case that can carry even a few SD cards, for instance, you're talking about being able to take gigs of files with you. My PDA case carries a 2GB and 4GB card, so I have 6GB+ of storage space while on the move. That'll hold most of the docs on my PC's hard drive! And in that case, a 2MB PDF file is no worry.

Between my 4GB SD card and my 8 GB CF card, I have 12 GB of storage card memory always installed in my pocket pc. And that's old technology. The newest pocket pcs can accommodate SDHC cards - some of these cards can get as large as 32 GB....storage space and file size is just not such a big issue these days.

Oh, and I do watch movies on my Pocket PC too (but that's a different topic altogether).

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

No, not the smallest - the largest - especially for tagged PDFs.

But I just tried out the tagged PDF I created and, voila!, it does resize and reflow nicely in xpdf. Wow! It works exactly the same as the Mobipocket version - at 6 times the size.

Are you still complaining about the size due to a crappy conversion tool you use to make tagged files. Tagged files are only slightly larger than untagged files if you use the correct tool to make them. If it not the fault of PDF that you are using a crappy tool.

Dale

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

Between my 4GB SD card and my 8 GB CF card, I have 12 GB of storage card memory always installed in my pocket pc. And that's old technology. The newest pocket pcs can accommodate SDHC cards - some of these cards can get as large as 32 GB....storage space and file size is just not such a big issue these days.

You forget to mention that these devices also have the battery life of a normal laptop - which makes them poor devices for reading eBooks.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Are you still complaining about the size due to a crappy conversion tool you use to make tagged files. Tagged files are only slightly larger than untagged files if you use the correct tool to make them. If it not the fault of PDF that you are using a crappy tool.

What tool do you suggest I use, then?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

What tool do you suggest I use, then?

Adobe Acrobat, Framemaker, or ActiveSync. those are the best ones. The last one is free but you need a PPC to sync to and Windows XP or earlier. those are the only ones I have tested.

Dale

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

You can probably also use InDesign to create tagged PDFs.

My iPaq 110 can handle SDHCs. I've converted a TV episode or two to WMF, and they play sweet!