Paperwhite & footnote pop-ups - Page 3

fxp33 · 08-13-2015, 05:47 PM

Hi,

Just awakening this thread with some updates (using Paperwhite generation 6, software 5.6.5)

Pop-up footnotes work great! See at the bottom for testing files.

AZW3

Popup at the bottom
correct preview including style (italics)
correct characters for non latin characters (here greek and chinese)
correct right to left in preview and in footnote (tested only hebrew)
go to footnote works
back button in upper menu doesn't come back to text!! BUG(?)

MOBI

popup as window in the middle
no styling in preview
correct non latin characters (here greek and chinese)
correct right to left in preview (although weird carriage return)
go to footnote works
incorrect right to left in footnote (no explicit rtl styling) BUG(?)
back button in upper menu comes back to text page

Creation / conversion technique

Double import into Calibre to create covers with the specific output (otherwise, I would have got mixed up to tell which is which)

Created in Sigil
saved as epub
imported in Calibre
converted to azw3
send to main memory as azw3
imported epub again into Calibre
converted into mobi
send to device main memory as mobi

Footnote code (in epub)

Header

Code:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="no"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN"
  "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:epub="http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops">

Notice that it is old epub2 header and doctype (if I am not mistaken)

Text and note call

Code:

 <p>This note should contain a word in italic<a epub:type="noteref" id="r2" href="../Text/Notes.xhtml#n2"><i><sup>W</sup></i></a>.</p>

-I believe the important part is the epub:type="noteref", indicating that the viewer has to use the link in a specific way instead of just going to the target text.
-Here the text note is in another page.

note paragraph

Code:

<p epub:type="footnote"  id="n2"><a href="../Text/Section0001.xhtml#r2">W</a> - another <i>footnote</i> text</p>

- Each note is in its own paragraph "p" tag.
- No "aside" used.
- I didn't even bother to include the notes in a section with the epub:type="footnotes" (notice the plural).

Styling
Used the page break style as mentioned above in this thread. (thanks guys

)

Code:

.note {page-break-after:always;}

Sources and references

The specifications: http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/gu...html/notes.php
Dated 2012 but still very good: Pig Gourds footnotes
And years of exchange on the best ebook forum ever: Mobileread

Hope this helps.

Regards

François

mattmc · 08-15-2015, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

Hi,

Just awakening this thread with some updates (using Paperwhite generation 6, software 5.6.5)

Pop-up footnotes work great! See at the bottom for testing files.

...

Hope this helps.

Regards

François

Hey, great to have another researcher on the Kindle pop-up notes! I definitely think that this is something that could be more precisely codified (there's a couple of threads hanging around on MobileRead but they are a bit confusing IMO).

I don't use Calibre and all that stuff, so I downloaded your ePub and ran it through KindleGen. I loaded the fire on a PW2, K3, K1 and Fire1.

The pop-up notes worked fine on the PW2. On the other Kindles, they acted as normal hyperlinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

AZW3

...
back button in upper menu doesn't come back to text!! BUG(?)

You mean the back button in the software menu, right? I didn't run into this on the K1/K3/Fire1, so I'm wondering what device you tried this on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

MOBI

What device did you try your "mobi" on? I can't think that you mean a legitimate KF7; I'm guessing that Calibre can output with a "mobi" or an "azw3" extension, but that in either case it's a compound KF7/KF8. So which one you were viewing would depend on the device. Heck, if pop-up notes are working on K1 and DX and stuff, great! But I didn't find this to be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

-I believe the important part is the epub:type="noteref", indicating that the viewer has to use the link in a specific way instead of just going to the target text.

Hm, I actually doubt that the epub:type="noteref" attribute has anything to do with the pop-up notes. That's specifically for epubs, and Amazon's file formats are not likely to follow those specs.

From what I recall from earlier MobileRead threads, the way it works is that the Kindle software analyzes your target location. If there's a certain markup structure at the target location (paragraph that contains a hyperlink that points back at where you are now, basically) it will take that paragraph and display it in a popup box. That's why footnotes that themselves contain hyperlinks do not work; for some reason they don't match the pattern that the Kindle is looking for.

I would love to be proven wrong on this; I did mess around with it earlier, trying to get it to create the popup box without the requisite back-link, but to no avail. You may want to experiment removing the noteref attrib vs. removing your back-link (or shifting your markup) and see what happens.

eschwartz · 08-15-2015, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattmc

What device did you try your "mobi" on? I can't think that you mean a legitimate KF7; I'm guessing that Calibre can output with a "mobi" or an "azw3" extension, but that in either case it's a compound KF7/KF8. So which one you were viewing would depend on the device. Heck, if pop-up notes are working on K1 and DX and stuff, great! But I didn't find this to be the case.

That would be because calibre does not create dual-MOBI's, it creates mobi7 *.mobi's and KF8 *.azw3's -- why would you think/assume/guess otherwise?

claibre is actually very flexible -- it has an advanced option to output dual-MOBI's if you so desire. It can be safely assumed this was not the case here, as it would not be created by accident.

shalym · 08-16-2015, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That would be because calibre does not create dual-MOBI's, it creates mobi7 *.mobi's and KF8 *.azw3's -- why would you think/assume/guess otherwise?

claibre is actually very flexible -- it has an advanced option to output dual-MOBI's if you so desire. It can be safely assumed this was not the case here, as it would not be created by accident.

Ok...I was just going to reply to this and ask about that "advanced" option, and I notice that you did mention it. Unfortunately, I couldn't see it until I quoted your text and looked at it in the reply window. I removed the color tag so that the text could be read more easily.

Shari

Doitsu · 08-16-2015, 07:56 AM

Hi François,

I converted your .epub source file with KindleGen and ran my own tests with pretty much the same results. One footnote behaved differently, though. When I tapped the "V" footnote in your Calibre generated azw3 file, my PW2 displayed the first footnote "(1): the earth." However, when I tapped the same footnote in the KindleGen generated azw3 version nothing happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

AZW3
[...]
back button in upper menu doesn't come back to text!! BUG(?)

I don't understand this comment. AFAIK, it's not possible to access the Back button while a footnote is being displayed, because as soon as you tap the menu bar area the footnote disappears. And even if a back button was visible, why would readers want to tap it instead of the [x] in the upper right corner of the footnote dialog box??!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

MOBI
[...]
incorrect right to left in footnote (no explicit rtl styling) BUG(?)

This is to be expected, because mobi7 only supports RTL at a word level. I.e., words are rendered RTL, however, sentences are rendered LTR. BTW, if you embed RTL sequences in texts, you may want to ad a dir="rtl" attribute to the span or p tags. Otherwise final punctuation marks won't be rendered correctly. (You can see this in Sigil. In your example, the final period is displayed right of the first Alif [א] instead after the last word.)

I did some footnote tests some time ago myself and created a simple epub3 test file with both epub:type="footnote" based in-chapter footnotes and epub:type="rearnote" based endnotes that I compiled with KindleGen. Both footnote types are working fine. (KindleGen has partial epub3 support. I.e. epub3 files don't need to be down-converted to epub2 files.)

I'd recommend endnotes, though, because the aside sections of epub:type="footnote" based inline footnotes are not automatically hidden (as they are in iBooks), and if you hide them with display: none nothing will be displayed, if the reader taps Go To Footnotes, and in KF7 books they won't work at all.
If you decide to use both types anyway make sure not to hide in-chapter footnote definitions.

mattmc · 08-16-2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That would be because calibre does not create dual-MOBI's, it creates mobi7 *.mobi's and KF8 *.azw3's -- why would you think/assume/guess otherwise?

claibre is actually very flexible -- it has an advanced option to output dual-MOBI's if you so desire. It can be safely assumed this was not the case here, as it would not be created by accident.

Sorry, I'm used to Kindlegen, which creates dual mobi's by default. I guess I don't know why you would want Calibre to generate one or the other; what does that benefit you, since the combined one can be read on either type of device?

Anyway, thanks for letting me know on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

I'd recommend endnotes, though, because the aside sections of epub:type="footnote" based inline footnotes are not automatically hidden (as they are in iBooks), and if you hide them with display: none nothing will be displayed, if the reader taps Go To Footnotes, and in KF7 books they won't work at all.
If you decide to use both types anyway make sure not to hide in-chapter footnote definitions.

I had poor experiences getting iBooks to display pop-up endnotes when they were in a different file than the one that links to them; have you actually tried this? Just curious. Makes me wonder if I was using epub:type="footnote" but pointing it out-of-file, and that was the issue...maybe epub:type="rearnote" plays nicely.

eschwartz · 08-16-2015, 04:54 PM

Unless you plan on reading the same file on both recent and old devices, there is no point in using dual-MOBI, and it takes up extra space.

Also, metadata handling is wonky, since it has to be updated in both portions. calibre cannot handle it (probably because it almost never shows up, and no one has written the code).

Doitsu · 08-16-2015, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattmc

I had poor experiences getting iBooks to display pop-up endnotes when they were in a different file than the one that links to them; have you actually tried this?

When I tested my footnote test file with iBooks only epub:type="footnote" footnotes defined as asides in the same book worked. However, iBooks isn't fully ePub3-compatible and other apps have no problems with endnotes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattmc

...maybe epub:type="rearnote" plays nicely.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. At least it didn't play nicely with my test file. However, since the IDPF has posted several slightly different footnote examples, it's quite possible that my footnote implementation is wrong.

It's also quite possible that my footnote examples worked fine with Kindle files, because KindleGen most likely ignores most or all of the epub3 specific footnote attributes and the firmware only uses heuristics to detect footnote references.

fxp33 · 08-17-2015, 02:02 PM

Hi guys,

Back after a few days off... wouah, with all the comments, where to start?

@Mattmc
Thanks for your detailed reading and your questions.
I must say that is was my first day with a kindle, so I really have to catch up with environment and file system (old, new, dual...).
Glad you enjoyed the files I posted, and I am impressed by your extensive testing program

Thanks a lot for telling me how it behaved. I am a bit disapointed to see that only PW2 worked. But of course, this is what I understood from kindle firmware update text: only latest one can display popup.

Mobi
I only have a Paperwhite from 2014, so this is the device. I guessed that there were two engines to display ebooks, depending on there extension / file format (exactly as on kobo with epub and kepub.epub, althought they are the same format, just changing the extension).

AZW3
I let calibre handle the conversion. The calibre editor can only work on the azw3 format and I didn't take a look at the footnote language used yet. (but soon

) I believe you are right about the epub:type="noteref" which indeed is epub. It has only importance if you create first an epub and if you intend to let a tool convert it in a second phase. Of course, if you create it directly in kindlegen, it doesn't mean anyting. (Haven't used it yet, my todo list starts to get ful

)

About the back button.
Yes, I mean the software back button, after you click the "go to" in the footnote. I noticed that in one version of the files, it didn't go back to the beginning of the text, but instead, went back to the Home book list (out of the book then!). I found that strange.

@Doitsu
Hi,
Thank you for your comments, I am impatient to give a try to the file you sent

Footnote different behavior.
Interesting each tool affects the way things behave. Once again, we need to check the generated files to see how it is converted.

Right and left
I should have checked that more in Sigil, but maybe I was tired

I have downloaded a test file here, (maybe even yours...) but still have to make some more testing.

@All

Maybe we can come up with a nice recapitulating file about footnotes. A kind of sum up "You can try all combination here" stuff.

I believe footnotes to be very important as normal note displaying, but also for educational quiz ebooks, giving a bit of interactivity on ereader.

Regards

François

mattmc · 08-17-2015, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Unless you plan on reading the same file on both recent and old devices, there is no point in using dual-MOBI, and it takes up extra space.

Also, metadata handling is wonky, since it has to be updated in both portions. calibre cannot handle it (probably because it almost never shows up, and no one has written the code).

That's interesting. See, for an author/creator, you're going to make a dual-MOBI to submit to Amazon, and they'll split the file for you. And you're going to be putting in the metadata as you want it before you convert it. So what you're discussing is mainly from the viewpoint of an owner/customer, who bought a book and wants to convert it to another format and/or change the metadata (for whatever reason).

Makes total sense now, I just wasn't thinking with those sorts of things. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

When I tested my footnote test file with iBooks only epub:type="footnote" footnotes defined as asides in the same book worked. However, iBooks isn't fully ePub3-compatible and other apps have no problems with endnotes.

Ah, I think I wasn't totally clear. When I had an ePub file with multiple XHTML files (one per chapter) epub:type="footnote" hyperlinks that targeted <aside> tags
that were outside the source XHTML file (but within the same book) failed in iBooks (did not pull up anything when I tapped them). The target <aside> had to be in the same XHTML file to work.

I wondered perhaps if that was intentional: if Apple wanted you to use rearnote if your link was going outside the XHTML file to another one at the end of the book, but based on your comment I gather that rearnote didn't work at all. Ah well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

Thanks for your detailed reading and your questions.

No problem

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxp33

Yes, I mean the software back button, after you click the "go to" in the footnote. I noticed that in one version of the files, it didn't go back to the beginning of the text, but instead, went back to the Home book list (out of the book then!). I found that strange.

That's a bit concerning. So the back button works fine for a regular hyperlink, but if you do the pop-up, then go to the footnote via the popup, the back button doesn't work? Sounds like a bug to me. If that's repeatable, we should let someone at Amazon know.

Doitsu · 08-18-2015, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattmc

When I had an ePub file with multiple XHTML files (one per chapter) epub:type="footnote" hyperlinks that targeted <aside> tags
that were outside the source XHTML file (but within the same book) failed in iBooks (did not pull up anything when I tapped them).

I wasn't able to reproduce this behavior. I modified my test file so that the first footnote points to an aside footnote definition in a different xhtml file and it still worked.
The two rearnotes still don't work, but this was to be expected since the iBooks Asset Guide doesn't mention rearnotes. According to the Asset Guide, the preferred format is:

Quote:

Code:

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:epub="http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops">
...
<p>
    <a href="chapter.xhtml#myNote" epub:type="noteref">1</a>
</p>

<aside id="myNote" epub:type="footnote">Text in popup</aside>
...
</html>

(The IDPF version is here.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattmc

That's a bit concerning. So the back button works fine for a regular hyperlink, but if you do the pop-up, then go to the footnote via the popup, the back button doesn't work? Sounds like a bug to me. If that's repeatable, we should let someone at Amazon know.

IMHO, this a non-issue. While having a working back button was essential for non-popup footnotes it's not required for readers/apps with popup footnote support.
Besides there's actually no need to select the Go To Footnotes option, because the footnote text is displayed in full in the popup dialog box. (If the footnote text is longer than the display window a scroll bar will be displayed.)
And if a reader actually selects the Go To Footnotes option, he'd first have to tap the menu area to display the back button and then tap the button.
I'd instinctively just tap the back link button before the footnote definition, which requires only one tap and takes me back to where I want to go.

mattmc · 08-18-2015, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

I wasn't able to reproduce this behavior. I modified my test file so that the first footnote points to an aside footnote definition in a different xhtml file and it still worked.

The two rearnotes still don't work, but this was to be expected since the iBooks Asset Guide doesn't mention rearnotes.

Interesting, thanks for side-checking this. What version of iBooks are you doing your tests in? I think I was testing in an old version, so maybe it's a bug that Apple fixed in a newer one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

IMHO, this a non-issue. While having a working back button was essential for non-popup footnotes it's not required for readers/apps with popup footnote support.

I suppose the only scenario where it'd be a problem is if there were no back-link for some reason--but you should have a back-link, so you're right, kinda a non-issue.

Hitch · 08-18-2015, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattmc

Interesting, thanks for side-checking this. What version of iBooks are you doing your tests in? I think I was testing in an old version, so maybe it's a bug that Apple fixed in a newer one.

I suppose the only scenario where it'd be a problem is if there were no back-link for some reason--but you should have a back-link, so you're right, kinda a non-issue.

I would point out that MOST ebook developers/formatters put a backlink in the footnote, in the superscripted note number, to return to the body text. About 50% of the readers (devices) out there don't have automatic "back" buttons, which is why you put the backlink in.

Offered FWIW. The entire discussion about converting books w/Calibre for personal use--e.g., using AZW3 or .mobi--is not something I can speak to, as we don't really work in that sphere; our work is commercial.

Hitch

Dankas · 08-20-2015, 08:37 AM

I'm having the same problems. Did subchapters linked right under the main title, they worked fiee as long as they are "list" items. As soon as I separated them with | to save some space, they all got funky, sometimes opened as footnotes, sometimes as links, all very randomly i must say. I used sigil for epub and calibre for mobi.

Doitsu · 08-20-2015, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dankas

As soon as I separated them with | to save some space, they all got funky, sometimes opened as footnotes, sometimes as links, all very randomly i must say.

Your problem(s) can most likely be fixed with some simple code/style changes, however, you'll need to provide some code/css samples that cause problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dankas

I used sigil for epub and calibre for mobi.

Mobi is the old file format; select .azw3 for better results. If you haven't already done so, check your file with FlightCrew and ePubCheck.

08-20-2015, 08:37 AM	#44
Dankas Member Posts: 14 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Croatia Device: Kindle Voyag/Paperwhite	Paperwhite & footnote pop-ups I'm having the same problems. Did subchapters linked right under the main title, they worked fiee as long as they are "list" items. As soon as I separated them with \| to save some space, they all got funky, sometimes opened as footnotes, sometimes as links, all very randomly i must say. I used sigil for epub and calibre for mobi.

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08-16-2015, 04:54 PM	#37
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,422 Karma: 85397180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Unless you plan on reading the same file on both recent and old devices, there is no point in using dual-MOBI, and it takes up extra space. Also, metadata handling is wonky, since it has to be updated in both portions. calibre cannot handle it (probably because it almost never shows up, and no one has written the code).

08-17-2015, 02:02 PM	#39
fxp33 Addict Posts: 261 Karma: 110864 Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Bordeaux, France Device: Kobo Glo, Aura HD, kindle paperwhite	Hi guys, Back after a few days off... wouah, with all the comments, where to start? @Mattmc Thanks for your detailed reading and your questions. I must say that is was my first day with a kindle, so I really have to catch up with environment and file system (old, new, dual...). Glad you enjoyed the files I posted, and I am impressed by your extensive testing program Thanks a lot for telling me how it behaved. I am a bit disapointed to see that only PW2 worked. But of course, this is what I understood from kindle firmware update text: only latest one can display popup. Mobi I only have a Paperwhite from 2014, so this is the device. I guessed that there were two engines to display ebooks, depending on there extension / file format (exactly as on kobo with epub and kepub.epub, althought they are the same format, just changing the extension). AZW3 I let calibre handle the conversion. The calibre editor can only work on the azw3 format and I didn't take a look at the footnote language used yet. (but soon ) I believe you are right about the epub:type="noteref" which indeed is epub. It has only importance if you create first an epub and if you intend to let a tool convert it in a second phase. Of course, if you create it directly in kindlegen, it doesn't mean anyting. (Haven't used it yet, my todo list starts to get ful ) About the back button. Yes, I mean the software back button, after you click the "go to" in the footnote. I noticed that in one version of the files, it didn't go back to the beginning of the text, but instead, went back to the Home book list (out of the book then!). I found that strange. @Doitsu Hi, Thank you for your comments, I am impatient to give a try to the file you sent Footnote different behavior. Interesting each tool affects the way things behave. Once again, we need to check the generated files to see how it is converted. Right and left I should have checked that more in Sigil, but maybe I was tired I have downloaded a test file here, (maybe even yours...) but still have to make some more testing. @All Maybe we can come up with a nice recapitulating file about footnotes. A kind of sum up "You can try all combination here" stuff. I believe footnotes to be very important as normal note displaying, but also for educational quiz ebooks, giving a bit of interactivity on ereader. Regards François

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