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Old 03-05-2018, 04:20 PM   #1
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Do all ToCs have to match exactly?

Somewhere I seem to have read or otherwise gotten the idea that if you have an HTML ToC, an NCX ToC and a NAV ToC (if epub3itizing), that they should all match up.

But I feel like the HTML ToC is generally redundant in ebook fiction and I usually leave it out.

But now I'm doing a book where the ToC and LoI are both illustrated, so I can't leave it out. What I want to know is if I restrict the HTML ToC to *just* what is present in the print book, i.e. chapters only, will that cause any problems?

The NCX and NAV would be full ToC with links for everything, cover, half title (yep, also illustrated, gotta include it), copyright, author and artist info pages, bibliography, etc.




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Old 03-05-2018, 08:07 PM   #2
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No, it shouldn't cause any problems that I can think of... the HTML ToC is just another page as far as readers/devices are concerned. Maybe someone else around here knows of a problem that would cause???
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by graycyn View Post
Somewhere I seem to have read or otherwise gotten the idea that if you have an HTML ToC, an NCX ToC and a NAV ToC (if epub3itizing), that they should all match up.
No. They could, but they don't have to match.

For example, I've worked on books laid out like this:

HTML TOC:
  • Chapter 1 by Author 1
    • Paragraph summary of Chapter 1
  • Chapter 2 by Author 2
    • Paragraph summary of Chapter 2
  • Chapter 3 by Author 1
    • Paragraph summary of Chapter 3

TOC.NCX:
  • Chapter 1
    • 1.1
    • 1.2
    • 1.3
  • Chapter 2
    • 2.1
    • 2.2
  • Chapter 3
    • 3.1
    • 3.2

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Originally Posted by graycyn View Post
But I feel like the HTML ToC is generally redundant in ebook fiction and I usually leave it out.
If you plan on converting to Kindle, you need to include the HTML TOC.

If you are going straight EPUB, you could probably leave it out... but it would be good practice to include the HTML TOC anyway.

You are allowing the user to choose whichever way they prefer navigating. Some might prefer to jump to the HTML TOC, then click on a chapter. Others might prefer the EPUB2 TOC.NCX (or EPUB3 NAV). And others may be using one for Accessibility reasons.

It is also a good idea to include the HTML TOC just in case there is a device or some reading program that doesn't support the NAV or TOC.NCX. Better to include all the options:
  • TOC NAV (EPUB3)
  • TOC NCX (EPUB2 + EPUB3 [Backwards Compatibility])
  • HTML TOC (All [even those reading in non-EPUB formats/readers])

Quote:
Originally Posted by graycyn View Post
But now I'm doing a book where the ToC and LoI are both illustrated, so I can't leave it out. What I want to know is if I restrict the HTML ToC to *just* what is present in the print book, i.e. chapters only, will that cause any problems?
The HTML TOC being limited to the upper layer of chapters won't effect anything... but I also have no idea what you mean by them being "illustrated".

If you mean something like:

Code:
<a href="../Chapter1.xhtml"><img alt="Chapter 1" src="../Image/Chapter1Banner.png" /></a>
where images are wrapped as links, I would highly recommend against that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graycyn View Post
The NCX and NAV would be full ToC with links for everything, cover, half title (yep, also illustrated, gotta include it), copyright, author and artist info pages, bibliography, etc.
... there is no need to include the frontmatter/backmatter in the TOCs.

It gets brought up every so often, and the topic I always recall is one back in 2013 about Frontispieces: Ebook Layout - Frontispiece sequence

And in 2014, there was another topic where similar discussion happened: Problems with Covers on eBooks & Kindle.

I also recall Hitch writing some fantastic posts on the topic. Front/Backmatter discussion always seem to come up when people complain about Kindle's "Start Reading Location". Amazon has the real heuristics of actual readers, and they probably found out that the vast majority of readers just skip right by it all and want to jump straight to Chapter 1 of the book.

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Old 03-06-2018, 06:17 PM   #4
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I would suggest that if you have an HTML TOC and a separate NCX and they are different then the NCX should have an entry for the HTML TOC just to make it easy for the user.

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Old 03-07-2018, 02:59 AM   #5
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Thanks everyone! I believe I'll just have chapters in the HTML TOC then to echo the print book and leave the frontmatter/backmatter links to the NAV and NCX.

The TOC illustration is simply an image appearing at the top, nothing complicated, likewise for the list of illustrations page. It's a children's book, if there was blank paper space anywhere, it got illustrated, hence the illustrated half title page. Thank heavens they are just B/W line drawings, because there are a lot of illustrations.

Speaking of which, another question? In the print book, only the full page illustrations are listed in the LOI. I planned to do the same with the ebook. Or should I link to EVERY illustration? I'm not sure what ebook conventions are for this, but there are a LOT of illustrations! And I've got other similar books like this to do, often with 30-40 illustrations.

As for Kindle conversion, I've had no troubles whatever with *converting* ePub3s without HTML TOC (via Kindle Previewer). I realize that publishing them would be another matter, since Amazon requires an HTML TOC, but they are for me and sometimes family. Hubby reads on Kindle, I read on Kobo, but have a Voyage to test on that I also use for proofreading. The converted ePub3s have worked fine on hubby's Paperwhite and my Voyage.

I guess I'll think about including HTML TOC in my ePubs from now on, there is a chance I'll live to see some of the books I'm doing become public domain. A couple may do so in a few years.

With frontispieces, so far, I usually put them where the text references them. In some cases, I incorporate them into an illustrated title page.




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Old 03-07-2018, 12:13 PM   #6
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Books you write can become public domain any time you wish ahead of the standard date. Otherwise they will vary depending on the country.

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Old 03-07-2018, 03:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
Books you write can become public domain any time you wish ahead of the standard date. Otherwise they will vary depending on the country.

Dale


To be clear, I am not speaking of books I have written, I am speaking of books I am digitizing. It's both a hobby and necessity as my eyes have trouble with print these days. I'm having fun searching out some of my childhood books and digitizing them, having a nostalgia re-read while I'm at it. Still, even if I can't share, I want to learn to do things properly.

Some, those that were my father's childhood books (a series), may start to become public domain during my lifetime so I want to have a feel for how I should do things, in case I *can* share them.

I'm thinking something copyrighted/published in 1924 would be public domain soon in the USA, presuming the laws don't change?







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Old 03-10-2018, 08:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graycyn View Post
To be clear, I am not speaking of books I have written, I am speaking of books I am digitizing. It's both a hobby and necessity as my eyes have trouble with print these days. I'm having fun searching out some of my childhood books and digitizing them, having a nostalgia re-read while I'm at it. Still, even if I can't share, I want to learn to do things properly.

Some, those that were my father's childhood books (a series), may start to become public domain during my lifetime so I want to have a feel for how I should do things, in case I *can* share them.

I'm thinking something copyrighted/published in 1924 would be public domain soon in the USA, presuming the laws don't change?

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Read about Coyright in our wiki. The US date never changes later than 1923 to protect Mickey Mouse. But there are some exceptions, so read the article. For some books The US follows the international treaty with copyright until 70 years after the writers death.

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Old 03-11-2018, 09:46 PM   #9
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Read about Coyright in our wiki. The US date never changes later than 1923 to protect Mickey Mouse. But there are some exceptions, so read the article. For some books The US follows the international treaty with copyright until 70 years after the writers death.

Dale
I was under the impression that if a book was published after 1923, and copyright renewed properly (it was), it became public domain 95 years after publication? That would be 2019 for a 1924 book or am I mistaken?

The author died in 1944. The illustrator died in 1938.



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Old 03-11-2018, 10:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by graycyn View Post
I was under the impression that if a book was published after 1923, and copyright renewed properly (it was), it became public domain 95 years after publication? That would be 2019 for a 1924 book or am I mistaken?

The author died in 1944. The illustrator died in 1938.
Anything published in the US between 1923-1963 is a giant spaghetti mix:

https://copyright.cornell.edu/publicdomain

Here is Stanford's Copyright Renewal database where you could check the (potential) copyright status of a work published in that time period:

https://exhibits.stanford.edu/copyri...s?forward=home
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:48 AM   #11
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The author died in 1944. The illustrator died in 1938.
Since the Mobileread library operates under the Life+70 copyright rule, you could upload your book here at once. (Even though US citizens won't be able to download it legally - but the rest of the world will.)
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:23 PM   #12
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Since the Mobileread library operates under the Life+70 copyright rule, you could upload your book here at once. (Even though US citizens won't be able to download it legally - but the rest of the world will.)


First I have to finish it! I still have to clean up the image scans, which is more time consuming than doing the text, and harder on my aging eyes. Let's just say I can't afford copies with a pristine dust jacket, so I do what I can to restore what I've got. I'm just happy to have accumulated most of the series with the cover artwork. It's taken a lot of constant searching to find what I can also afford.

Also, if US citizens can't download it, I'm thinking maybe they can't upload it legally yet either?

I *think* it would be legal in the US next year....


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Old 03-12-2018, 04:25 PM   #13
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Anything published in the US between 1923-1963 is a giant spaghetti mix:



https://copyright.cornell.edu/publicdomain



Here is Stanford's Copyright Renewal database where you could check the (potential) copyright status of a work published in that time period:



https://exhibits.stanford.edu/copyri...s?forward=home


This is the site I used to confirm that the copyrights all had been properly renewed for the series.




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Old 03-12-2018, 04:43 PM   #14
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First I have to finish it! I still have to clean up the image scans, which is more time consuming than doing the text, and harder on my aging eyes. Let's just say I can't afford copies with a pristine dust jacket, so I do what I can to restore what I've got. I'm just happy to have accumulated most of the series with the cover artwork. It's taken a lot of constant searching to find what I can also afford.

Also, if US citizens can't download it, I'm thinking maybe they can't upload it legally yet either?
I hear you on the image cleanup. That can be a real pain.

And you might have a point about uploading as a US citizen; but that is a problem for the experts.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:18 PM   #15
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I hear you on the image cleanup. That can be a real pain.



And you might have a point about uploading as a US citizen; but that is a problem for the experts.

Definitely a pain doing images, as I like to do the best job I possibly can.

And I'm no expert on copyright, that's for sure! I'd rather play it safe on uploading anything than be sorry!





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