Engst to Pogue: E-Book piracy not a given

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Argel

CNET comment on 'paying for free content':

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13556_3-9961850-61.html

He is so wrong about me not "wanting" to pay for content. May I "want" to get everything I read for free... but I also want my favorite writers and new writers to keep writting so that I can keep reading. I have no problem for paying for every book I read to continue to supply of good books. See my signature.

BOb

[RickyMaveety]

For me, the essential comparison is with iTunes. I used to download mp3s from sites that were most likely illegal, but that was because there was no place to purchase single songs in mp3 format and I didn't want to fork over $20 for the whole CD. (Did that one too many times and got stuck with a crappy CD for the love of one song.)

Long story short, it took a lot of time to get those downloads. Even now, I would gladly pay a reasonable price for a properly edited and formatted Kindle book rather than download the free version and spend ages editing it and formatting it. (And, my grateful thanks go out to people who will spend that sort of time making the classic available to the rest of us ... you folks are saints.)

That gets us down to what is "reasonable." I don't think it is the hardcover price, no matter how convenient it may be, it still costs less than the HC to produce and the difference should be passed on to the consumer ... that is, if you want to prevent piracy.

The iTunes model would work perfectly for ebooks. Price the digital version at 1/2 to 2/3 of the price of the physical version (and in this case, I would suggest they use the cheapest physical version on the market at the time), and, while they're at it, why not set the ebooks up so that they can be loaned out?? If the lending libraries can have versions that expire after a period of time, why not have versions that will last forever on your ebook, but expire after 2 weeks if transferred to a friend's. Hell, while your at it, tag them so that the original owner can't read the file while it's out on loan, but can after the two week loan period.

It's not rocket science, I'm certain it could be done. There are times I think that people who sell goods just don't understand consumers. Basically, if we feel like we are being ripped off or given no choices in the market, then most of us will have no compunction about turning the rip off around on the seller. That said, give us a reasonable price for your goods, and we'll buy it before we even so much as think about stealing it. Especially if stealing it takes more time and effort than buying it. (Let's see .... I usually charge my clients $250 an hour for my services .... if it takes me four hours to download, edit and format a "free" book, then that book has in essence "cost" me $1,000. Would I pay $8.00 to save myself $1,000 in lost time?? You betcha.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I think we're all aware of how much you loathe even the minimalist security used by iTunes and similar sites... but the fact of the matter is, iTunes demonstrates how an effective balance between security, customer satisfaction and sales can be struck.

Balance?

Until recently, iTunes allows you to download music that plays on exactly 1 player: the iPod. You could not play that music on another iPod unless they gave you permission to do so.

Doesn't sound too balanced to me.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So don't act as if the task is impossible or doomed to failure. That's ignoring the realities of the situation.

The reality is that any restriction on what a customer can do with the item purchased will decrease the value of the item. Too many restrictions means that the item becomes valueless to the consumer.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

This is actually common to many markets and products (cellphones, automobiles, software, cable TV),

I'm failing to see where those restrictions are for those products.

I can use my car in any way I choose, sell it, give it away.
I can do the same with all the software that I use (recently courts have ruled that software is sold - not licensed as Microsoft argued - and so like any other item, it can be sold, given away etc.)
My DVR lets me to whatever I want with any cable TV show I can see.

And, of course, all those items have some sort of physical element - and, so, make them an invalid to an eBook.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

but it hasn't stopped people from buying and using them, because--and this is key--they see how the advantages of having the product outweigh the disadvantages of going without.

And paying money for a restricted product has better value than getting an unrestricted product by pirating it?

Sorry, don't see it.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Many products are bought and sold daily that satisfy that simple equation. Even with security, e-books could also satisfy that equation.

With "security" eBooks are valueless.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

The iTunes model would work perfectly for ebooks. Price the digital version at 1/2 to 2/3 of the price of the physical version (and in this case, I would suggest they use the cheapest physical version on the market at the time), and, while they're at it, why not set the ebooks up so that they can be loaned out?? If the lending libraries can have versions that expire after a period of time, why not have versions that will last forever on your ebook, but expire after 2 weeks if transferred to a friend's.

Because those systems simply won't work. Already been proven.

I saw several libraries that tried this and they all failed:
1. The systems were hacked to prevent the content from expiring, or
2. The readers of the eBooks were restricted to the point that only a very, very small number of people could use it, or
3. The expiration code simply didn't work (didn't expire soon enough, expired too soon, etc.).

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Balance?

Until recently, iTunes allows you to download music that plays on exactly 1 player: the iPod. You could not play that music on another iPod unless they gave you permission to do so.

Doesn't sound too balanced to me.

Huh?? I've been turning my iTunes music into mp3 for ages now and doing it with the software that Apple supplies. Am I missing something here??

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Until recently, iTunes allows you to download music that plays on exactly 1 player: the iPod. You could not play that music on another iPod unless they gave you permission to do so.

There were always easy workarounds to deal with that. Move on.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

The reality is that any restriction on what a customer can do with the item purchased will decrease the value of the item. Too many restrictions means that the item becomes valueless to the consumer.

True. But the customer decides what is "too many restrictions," and when it becomes valueless to them. If the customer is satisfied, they buy.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I can use my car in any way I choose, sell it, give it away.

You can't drive it through a schoolyard full of kids. You can't speed through traffic signals. You can't drive on the "wrong" side of the road. Restrictions that most (sane) drivers accept, in order to enjoy the privilege of driving.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

My DVR lets me to whatever I want with any cable TV show I can see.

You are not allowed to gather groups of people and charge admission to watch those programs. Same notation.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

And paying money for a restricted product has better value than getting an unrestricted product by pirating it?

Sorry, don't see it.

Stolen any cars lately?

Originally Posted by rlauzon

With "security" eBooks are valueless.

TO YOU.

To others, who appreciate e-book portability, instant availability, format choices, font size control, lower cost (when it happens), etc, and can understand how some security does not negate or outweigh those benefits... not so much.

[delphidb96]

One of the biggest problems I find is just *finding* legal versions of some books in a series. For example. I can find Mobi versions of "Flight of the Intruder", by Stephen Coonts, but I cannot find "Final Flight" - which is the second one in the series. And while I can find *some* of Tanya Huff's "Blood..." series, I can't find *any* of her Valor series commercially.

So, having bought numerous copies of their works in MMPB, I turn to 'darknet' for my copies until the publishers get wise enough to re-release them in ebook format. And every time they release a title I've 'darknetted', I buy it.

Derek

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Because those systems simply won't work. Already been proven.

I saw several libraries that tried this and they all failed:
1. The systems were hacked to prevent the content from expiring, or
2. The readers of the eBooks were restricted to the point that only a very, very small number of people could use it, or
3. The expiration code simply didn't work (didn't expire soon enough, expired too soon, etc.).

Do you have any support for that assertion? Just curious as to where the several online libraries were hiding ... I was never lucky enough to find one until very recently. Also, I don't see that the expiration code program not working is somehow a failure of the system as a whole, it just sounds like poor programming to me. Ditto over restricting the books or content expiring ... allowing someone to "loan out" a book they purchased is not the same as a library system ... it's a purchase system with loan out capability that I am suggesting.

So, basically, as I understand it, that hasn't been tried before, so you can't really say that it has already been tried and failed.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

There were always easy workarounds to deal with that. Move on.

isn't it a bit hypocritical to say that itunes has found the happy medium when it comes to reconciling drm and ease of use, then say that the reason itunes drm is so great is that it's easily broken ???

i'm also curious why itunes continues to be cited as the argument for drm, when they have actually now begun to sell drm-free mp3s (as does Amazon).

You can't drive it through a schoolyard full of kids. You can't speed through traffic signals. You can't drive on the "wrong" side of the road. Restrictions that most (sane) drivers accept, in order to enjoy the privilege of driving.

i'm sorry, how is that relevant ? you can't beat someone to death with a kindle legally either, but that has nothing to do with drm.

You are not allowed to gather groups of people and charge admission to watch those programs. Same notation.

i don't beleive rlauzon was talking about trying to make profit from copyright files, just personal use, which this would not be an example of.

Stolen any cars lately?

again : relevance ?

@ Ricky : there is a page in the wiki listing libraries which lend ebooks. some charge a subscription fee, some are free. there are quite a few of them.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You can't drive it through a schoolyard full of kids. You can't speed through traffic signals. You can't drive on the "wrong" side of the road. Restrictions that most (sane) drivers accept, in order to enjoy the privilege of driving.

Yes, I can do all those things. There is no technological restriction in my car preventing me from doing so.

Let's keep the comparison apples to apples instead of apples to oranges here.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You are not allowed to gather groups of people and charge admission to watch those programs. Same notation.

Same as above.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Stolen any cars lately?

You are confusing property right with copyright. They are different.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

To others, who appreciate e-book portability, instant availability, format choices, font size control, lower cost (when it happens), etc, and can understand how some security does not negate or outweigh those benefits... not so much.

And I can get all those things - without the technological restrictions - by getting an illegal copy.

You keep thinking that the comparison is between the current version of the technology (paper) and the new technology. It isn't. The new technology is already here.

You need to show how the legal version provides better value than the illegal version.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Do you have any support for that assertion? Just curious as to where the several online libraries were hiding ... I was never lucky enough to find one until very recently.

Right. There aren't many left anymore. The auto-expiring eBooks simply didn't work. People stopped "checking them out" and the libraries that were doing it stopped.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Also, I don't see that the expiration code program not working is somehow a failure of the system as a whole, it just sounds like poor programming to me.

Then you need to learn more about programming. Please don't take that as a slam.

As Bruce Schneier says: Anyone can create an encryption system that he can't break. But that doesn't mean it can't be broken.

Just because you can't see why it's difficult, doesn't mean that it's easy.

This topic is large and has already been discussed here (and in other places). The summary of the argument basically is:
1. The reader must be able to read the content of the eBook.
2. Therefore, someone can examine how the reader does it and break the system.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

isn't it a bit hypocritical to say that itunes has found the happy medium when it comes to reconciling drm and ease of use, then say that the reason itunes drm is so great is that it's easily broken ???

i'm also curious why itunes continues to be cited as the argument for drm, when they have actually now begun to sell drm-free mp3s (as does Amazon).

i'm sorry, how is that relevant ? you can't beat someone to death with a kindle legally either, but that has nothing to do with drm.

i don't beleive rlauzon was talking about trying to make profit from copyright files, just personal use, which this would not be an example of.

again : relevance ?

@ Ricky : there is a page in the wiki listing libraries which lend ebooks. some charge a subscription fee, some are free. there are quite a few of them.

I understand that there are libraries out there, and some of them may fail. I guess I just don't see what that has to do with a purchase system. Of course, I have been reading (with great interest) the articles concerning the "purchase" of ebooks as being really a form of "rental" since the Doctrine of First Purchase is not applied.

However, the fact that there are a number of libraries listed on the Wiki would not appear to support the other poster's argument that the library system is some dismal failure ... which is what I got from his post. Also, the reason I questioned his support for his assertion was on his point regarding that the library system had been proven to be a failure. Maybe I'm just not making my point very clearly ... that's certainly happend before.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Right. There aren't many left anymore. The auto-expiring eBooks simply didn't work. People stopped "checking them out" and the libraries that were doing it stopped.



Then you need to learn more about programming. Please don't take that as a slam.

As Bruce Schneier says: Anyone can create an encryption system that he can't break. But that doesn't mean it can't be broken.

Just because you can't see why it's difficult, doesn't mean that it's easy.

This topic is large and has already been discussed here (and in other places). The summary of the argument basically is:
1. The reader must be able to read the content of the eBook.
2. Therefore, someone can examine how the reader does it and break the system.

Sorry, but you didn't address my main point. I'm talking about a purchase and loan system ... not a lending library. There is a difference, although you might not believe it.

I know quite a bit about programming, although I am much more fond of playing with hardware. And, when I have loaned games and other software to friends (after I have grown tired of it and long since have deleted it from my computer), I don't see them trying to bust the encryption in order to play it. What would be the point?? Same thing with loaning someone a digital book ... most people wouldn't put the time or the effort into hacking it. I'm not saying it couldn't be done ... just that most people wouldn't bother. I certainly wouldn't bother, and I could probably do it. I just don't care to waste the freaking time when I could borrow the book at low cost (or no cost if borrowed from a friend) to read. Hacking an ebook makes about as much sense to me as taking a book out of the library and then xeroxing all the pages so you have a "free" one at home. Gotta a tip for those folks, the time they put into creating their "free" version cost them a whole lot more than just purchasing the book would have.

So, your arguments, while interesting, don't really address some of my points, and, since I am hearing from other posters that lending libraries still exist (although I wasn't talking about lending libraries), and there are several out there ... then I guess that you can't really point me to any proof for your assertion.

As stated previously, they are interesting arguments, but without some outside reference to support them, they just don't make sense to me. If I may digress a moment, it's a lot like the argument I heard not long ago from my brother in law about the gas economy. His statement was that when the gas economy collapsed, there would be no more cities. He couldn't cite any support for the argument, and I pointed out that there have been large cities throughout history and long before the invention of the automobile. Of course, we never reached any agreement on the issue, because he (and I suspect you) is the sort of person who really holds on to their beliefs regardless of whether or not they are supported by .... well, by anything other than the fact that he believes it.

While I can understand his view, it makes for piss poor debate.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

isn't it a bit hypocritical to say that itunes has found the happy medium when it comes to reconciling drm and ease of use, then say that the reason itunes drm is so great is that it's easily broken ???

Actually, it's not a matter of breaking it. As Ricky also pointed out, you could always burn a CD, and that was within iTunes' system.

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i'm also curious why itunes continues to be cited as the argument for drm, when they have actually now begun to sell drm-free mp3s (as does Amazon).

iTunes didn't suddenly become a smash-hit success because they started to offer non-DRM material. Again, my point (really, my only point, so I don't have to recopy another dozen exchanges) was that the audience had already accepted DRM, considering the advantages of iTunes service as outweighing the discomfort of security. Same with Amazon.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Actually, it's not a matter of breaking it. As Ricky also pointed out, you could always burn a CD, and that was within iTunes' system.



iTunes didn't suddenly become a smash-hit success because they started to offer non-DRM material. Again, my point (really, my only point, so I don't have to recopy another dozen exchanges) was that the audience had already accepted DRM, considering the advantages of iTunes service as outweighing the discomfort of security. Same with Amazon.

Steve, that's partly my point too. iTunes, Amazon ... they are so convenient and (especially with iTunes) reasonably priced, why would a few restrictions bother me when the alternative is spending a ginormous amount of time creating or editing my own content that is drm free??

For me, it all boils down to my time vs. my pocketbook. If the time it takes to make something "costs" me less than my out of pocket, or if it doesn't exist in the marketplace ... then I'll make it myself. If my cost in time is more than the going rate, then I'm buying it if I want it that badly.

Most of the people who go through the trouble to hack into DRM so that they can pirate it are the same types who don't think identity theft and other "digital" crime is a big deal. I can't say that I respect them for their efforts, because I don't (and if I ever catch the little bugger who tried to charge $1,200 in plane tickets to my credit card ... he's toast .... Buddhist or not). They are the exception and not the rule.

When the majority of the consumers become digital pirates, it is because they feel that the marketplace is not paying attention. The recording industry is only ... maybe ... starting to learn this. When that gets far enough out of kilter, that's when we all get a Robin Hood mentality.