Amazon Kindle might be the worst thing that could happen to e-books? - Page 4

tcv · 11-19-2007, 04:33 PM

After the iPod, how much more open is that world? A lot of these points fit squarely with the original iPod and iTunes combination. The most "innovation" we've seen is other players ability to play un-encumbered AAC.

Still, if you've an iPod, you've got to use iTunes. Sure, you can bring in other formats, but it's still an Apple world.

(Ok, ok, you can install a Linux-based O/S on the iPod and run anything, but, c'mon, I'm talking about the majority of consumers.)

And, what's more, it seems that most people don't care. iPods still fly off the shelves. iTunes is still the most popular store online. Yeah, users know something about the limitations, but they don't care.

We care, but how much of the population do we represent?

m

slayda · 11-19-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryEF

While I agree with many of the points initially raised, I suspect that this may be the best thing to happen to ebooks. One of the several reasons that ebooks have not been more successful is they require certain amount of computer competence to get everything working correctly.

I kind of agree. Like the Mac is the PC for the rest of y'all, maybe the Kindle is the ebook reader for the rest of y'all.

However, having some computer competence, I would prefer a more open SW/HW ebook reader. Maybe it won't be too long before it is hacked with an equivalent to "Book Designer" developed for it.

AnemicOak · 11-19-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcv

We care, but how much of the population do we represent?

Very true.

I'm on my 3rd IPod (use it for hours every day) & have never purchased a single item from iTunes, but I'm quite sure I'm in the minority.

tirsales · 11-19-2007, 04:48 PM

Yes, the normal user doesn't care about DRM especially not if sold as nicely (and even more braindead than normal DRM). But does this make this kind of bullshit any better? No, it does not. By bullshit I mean this closed proprietary systems. And senseless decision like creation a new DRM-format if you have an existing one - a nice one - by the hand.
And - in the long run - average joe *will* see why it was a very, very bad thing to support.

Oh: And the average joe user doesn't care about things like backups - nevertheless they need them. They don't care about peoples rights - but they need them.
I never meant a "non-drm-system" as the only solution, but at least a "common and shared" one. Not some kind of "one device, one reseller"-crap.

Alisa · 11-19-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Very true.

I'm on my 3rd IPod (use it for hours every day) & have never purchased a single item from iTunes, but I'm quite sure I'm in the minority.

Yep. I don't have an iPod and all my music is in .ogg but my dad, who never touched a computer until a few years ago doesn't want anything for xmas or his birthday but iTunes credits for his. He wouldn't want to have to convert files or find his PID. He just wants to buy the book and read the book.

yvanleterrible · 11-19-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Very true.

I'm on my 3rd IPod (use it for hours every day) & have never purchased a single item from iTunes, but I'm quite sure I'm in the minority.

You're not alone, I've used iTunes for the last three years and never bought a tune. I just think it's a great jukebox for the jazz I have that they don't sell. I plugged the computer on the shop PA and I let iTunes do its magic all day with never a dupicate played; there is enough to run for 20 days. Find a radio station that'll do that!

tompe · 11-19-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugbug

Its thicker on one end and tapered on another to feel like you are holding a paperback.

I do not get this. I just tried to hold a paperback but do not see how one end is thicker.

jasonkchapman · 11-19-2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I do not get this. I just tried to hold a paperback but do not see how one end is thicker.

Curl the left-hand page back behind the book and read the right-hand page. I think that's what they were going for.

NatCh · 11-19-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryEF

While I agree with many of the points initially raised, I suspect that this may be the best thing to happen to ebooks ....

Excellent first post, JerryEF -- you clearly know how to make an entrance!

tompe · 11-19-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

Curl the left-hand page back behind the book and read the right-hand page. I think that's what they were going for.

But persons that destroy books that way are evil persons and I thought they were a very small minority...

GregS · 11-19-2007, 05:08 PM

I have no idea about the general market, but I would not buy anything that enslaves me to a particular publisher, nor anything that locks my books to a particular vendor, or is DRMed and cannot be de-DRMed.

I still have the books I read in Primary school - and I am 50 years old, I have some of my father's books, old books I bought some over 100 years old.

My library is my pride and joy, but I am not addicted to paper or any other technology, but to the content of these marvellous treasures. Content!

One of my prized books, is small, less than 100 pages, practically self published, largely unknown, and absolutely, in its area, brilliant. How with a Kindle would I ever have such a book?

Is Amzon.com trying to set itself up as the ultimate power over content? It seems this is its ambition, and I say no way, never.

A big mistake, if what is being said is true, a really big mistake.

edsohsmith · 11-19-2007, 05:22 PM

I think a lot of people are rationalizing away some of the drawbacks here. No DRM Mobi support. No reading Amazon titles on other readers. No PDF support. No self conversions. Completely locked system.

If a real drawback to the furthering of ebooks as a viable alternative is the "Tower of Ebable", then I do not see how the initial incarnation of the Kindle can be seen as anything besides a disaster. Saying that DRM lock down does not matter to the average uniformed Joe is missing the point. DRM is bad for customers whether they initially feel it or not.

AnemicOak · 11-19-2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edsohsmith

No self conversions.

Not sure what you mean here. You can download software from Mobi & convert stuff yourself to non-DRM'd Mobi files & then read it on the Kindle.

igorsk · 11-19-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsgreer

I just noticed that they now have "91,269" kindle books on now. Just the sheer number of books that they will end up having should drive competition. I think that this will make the publishers realize that their IS a market for ebooks. So I think the Amazon is a good thing, the DRM situation will work itself out eventually. Hopefully.

Many of them are not really books but articles and such.

Zoot · 11-19-2007, 06:16 PM

I don't have any problem with the DRM issues for the Kindle. I own a Sony Reader and ordered a Kindle this morning which will be here tomorrow.

The only real difference I see is that you can't read the books on a PC as well as the reader device. Other than that the specs and the DRM limitations are almost exactly the same.

The major issue is simply the price and the fact that you're not going to replace paperback books universally with a $400 device. So will Amazon still be selling these and will I still be able to read the books I've bought in 1, 2 3+ years? Who knows.

I will say that in the iPod analogy there's one way that the Amazon Kindle is better than iTunes and iPod. On my iPod probably 90% of the content came from CDs I owned before there was an iPod. The remaining 10% is everything I could find on the iTunes store that I didn't own that I wanted to listen to. I would *love* to buy more music but honestly it's virtually all crap these days. At least with Amazon I look at their initially available catalog for the Kindle and I can see a huge number of books that I might be interested in reading.

I really like reading on my Sony Reader and having the free wireless is going to be really nice. So I'm happy to support Amazon's bold venture, whether or not they make it in the long term.

Consider also that the price for the reader may go down, or might become subsidized (buy N books in a one year period, pay for some premium EV-DO subscription that includes email, etc.), that the book catalog will likely expand both into new and older titles, and that new capabilities and features may be only an (automatic forced) software update away.

People moan about PDF support but the two attempts I made to read PDF files on the Sony sent me fleeing in terror. PDF on a book reader is not practical until we have displays that can display 8.5x11 at 150dpi or better IMHO.

I think the Kindle is a step in the right direction, and while it may not be the "tipping point" device, it will take us a long way in that direction by introducing the technology to perhaps more people than all the similar devices made so far.

So far Amazon is doing this up right. Their store is well done (unlike Sony's) and the process is totally painless. When you order a Kindle they automatically register the device to your Amazon account, assign it a name "Bob's Kindle" etc. based on your Amazon account info, and even before it arrives you can start buying books and subscriptions which will appear on the device like magic within minutes of turning it on for the first time. It will start out with the same one-click buying options as your Amazon account.

I've already bought my first book, assigned the device an email address, and it hasn't even gotten on the FedEx truck yet.

Z.

11-19-2007, 04:33 PM	#46
tcv Addict Posts: 330 Karma: 596 Join Date: Oct 2006	After the iPod, how much more open is that world? A lot of these points fit squarely with the original iPod and iTunes combination. The most "innovation" we've seen is other players ability to play un-encumbered AAC. Still, if you've an iPod, you've got to use iTunes. Sure, you can bring in other formats, but it's still an Apple world. (Ok, ok, you can install a Linux-based O/S on the iPod and run anything, but, c'mon, I'm talking about the majority of consumers.) And, what's more, it seems that most people don't care. iPods still fly off the shelves. iTunes is still the most popular store online. Yeah, users know something about the limitations, but they don't care. We care, but how much of the population do we represent? m Last edited by tcv; 11-19-2007 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Linux

11-19-2007, 06:16 PM	#60
Zoot Connoisseur Posts: 89 Karma: 34 Join Date: Nov 2006 Device: Amazon Kindle	Better than iTunes I don't have any problem with the DRM issues for the Kindle. I own a Sony Reader and ordered a Kindle this morning which will be here tomorrow. The only real difference I see is that you can't read the books on a PC as well as the reader device. Other than that the specs and the DRM limitations are almost exactly the same. The major issue is simply the price and the fact that you're not going to replace paperback books universally with a $400 device. So will Amazon still be selling these and will I still be able to read the books I've bought in 1, 2 3+ years? Who knows. I will say that in the iPod analogy there's one way that the Amazon Kindle is better than iTunes and iPod. On my iPod probably 90% of the content came from CDs I owned before there was an iPod. The remaining 10% is everything I could find on the iTunes store that I didn't own that I wanted to listen to. I would love to buy more music but honestly it's virtually all crap these days. At least with Amazon I look at their initially available catalog for the Kindle and I can see a huge number of books that I might be interested in reading. I really like reading on my Sony Reader and having the free wireless is going to be really nice. So I'm happy to support Amazon's bold venture, whether or not they make it in the long term. Consider also that the price for the reader may go down, or might become subsidized (buy N books in a one year period, pay for some premium EV-DO subscription that includes email, etc.), that the book catalog will likely expand both into new and older titles, and that new capabilities and features may be only an (automatic forced) software update away. People moan about PDF support but the two attempts I made to read PDF files on the Sony sent me fleeing in terror. PDF on a book reader is not practical until we have displays that can display 8.5x11 at 150dpi or better IMHO. I think the Kindle is a step in the right direction, and while it may not be the "tipping point" device, it will take us a long way in that direction by introducing the technology to perhaps more people than all the similar devices made so far. So far Amazon is doing this up right. Their store is well done (unlike Sony's) and the process is totally painless. When you order a Kindle they automatically register the device to your Amazon account, assign it a name "Bob's Kindle" etc. based on your Amazon account info, and even before it arrives you can start buying books and subscriptions which will appear on the device like magic within minutes of turning it on for the first time. It will start out with the same one-click buying options as your Amazon account. I've already bought my first book, assigned the device an email address, and it hasn't even gotten on the FedEx truck yet. Z.

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11-19-2007, 04:48 PM	#49
tirsales MIA ... but returning som Posts: 1,600 Karma: 511342 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Germany Device: PRS-505 and Really not owning a PRS-700	Yes, the normal user doesn't care about DRM especially not if sold as nicely (and even more braindead than normal DRM). But does this make this kind of bullshit any better? No, it does not. By bullshit I mean this closed proprietary systems. And senseless decision like creation a new DRM-format if you have an existing one - a nice one - by the hand. And - in the long run - average joe will see why it was a very, very bad thing to support. Oh: And the average joe user doesn't care about things like backups - nevertheless they need them. They don't care about peoples rights - but they need them. I never meant a "non-drm-system" as the only solution, but at least a "common and shared" one. Not some kind of "one device, one reseller"-crap.

11-19-2007, 05:08 PM	#56
GregS Zealot Posts: 107 Karma: 308 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Perth Australia Device: EZ Reader 5", Iliad	I have no idea about the general market, but I would not buy anything that enslaves me to a particular publisher, nor anything that locks my books to a particular vendor, or is DRMed and cannot be de-DRMed. I still have the books I read in Primary school - and I am 50 years old, I have some of my father's books, old books I bought some over 100 years old. My library is my pride and joy, but I am not addicted to paper or any other technology, but to the content of these marvellous treasures. Content! One of my prized books, is small, less than 100 pages, practically self published, largely unknown, and absolutely, in its area, brilliant. How with a Kindle would I ever have such a book? Is Amzon.com trying to set itself up as the ultimate power over content? It seems this is its ambition, and I say no way, never. A big mistake, if what is being said is true, a really big mistake.

11-19-2007, 05:22 PM	#57
edsohsmith Connoisseur Posts: 69 Karma: 11 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: Sony PRS 505 (soon)	I think a lot of people are rationalizing away some of the drawbacks here. No DRM Mobi support. No reading Amazon titles on other readers. No PDF support. No self conversions. Completely locked system. If a real drawback to the furthering of ebooks as a viable alternative is the "Tower of Ebable", then I do not see how the initial incarnation of the Kindle can be seen as anything besides a disaster. Saying that DRM lock down does not matter to the average uniformed Joe is missing the point. DRM is bad for customers whether they initially feel it or not.

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