Are these sections useful?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'll have had the book finished (and started the next one) by the time you get all that done.

It takes barely any time to delete any of this stuff.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

That kind of basic structural cleanup of an EPUB takes less than 5 minutes. I can do wholesale CSS cleanup in about 10 minutes.

The only thing that takes any real time is semantic cleanup, so that em and strong are only used for emphasized matter and not all italics and bolding, etc.

em and strong don't matter. They are no different when looking at the screen at i and b.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

em and strong don't matter. They are no different when looking at the screen at i and b.

Jon - I wonder if you read anyone else’s posts…lol
This has been argued multiple times and you’ve been proven incorrect.

- i/b are visual markups
- em/strong are semantic markups
- MOST devices/apps default to italics/bold for em/strong
- accessibility devices/apps can differentiate between semantics and visual markup and thus emphasize a spoken word differently than an italicized (visual only) word
- your css can be adjusted to display emphasize <em>, or strong, words differently than just italics/bold (color, underline, letter spacing, to name a few)

Just because you choose to leave them as default doesn’t mean everyone has to. Please give it a rest.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Jon - I wonder if you read anyone else’s posts…lol
This has been argued multiple times and you’ve been proven incorrect.

- i/b are visual markups
- em/strong are semantic markups
- MOST devices/apps default to italics/bold for em/strong
- accessibility devices/apps can differentiate between semantics and visual markup and thus emphasize a spoken word differently than an italicized (visual only) word
- your css can be adjusted to display emphasize <em>, or strong, words differently than just italics/bold (color, underline, letter spacing, to name a few)

Just because you choose to leave them as default doesn’t mean everyone has to. Please give it a rest.

You can also choose to change how <i> and <b> look using CSS. I have never once seen <i>, <em>, <b>, <strong> changed to anything other then the default.

[Turtle91]

You are right that you can change i/b using css, but you can’t change accessibility software that relies on them to be tagged properly….

Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not out there and used properly. You obviously haven't seen my books (or read the examples I've posted here) then you would have seen them...

Again…these are all arguments that have been presented here before, you just choose to ignore them. That’s fine for your personal books, but please don’t present it here as the way it SHOULD be done.

Edit: take a look at the daisy accessibility listing for em/i strong/b

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

You are right that you can change i/b using css, but you can’t change accessibility software that relies on them to be tagged properly….

Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not out there and used properly. You obviously haven't seen my books (or read the examples I've posted here) then you would have seen them...

Again…these are all arguments that have been presented here before, you just choose to ignore them. That’s fine for your personal books, but please don’t present it here as the way it SHOULD be done.

Edit: take a look at the daisy accessibility listing for em/i strong/b

In the eBooks I've edited from major publishers, even though the eBooks may be ePub3 with accessibility in the OPF, It's been all <em> or all <i>. Same with <b> and <strong>. I've not seen any mixed eBooks that use both <i> and <em>.

But what about italics and bold in CSS? I've seen plenty of cases of italics and bold in CSS. Would you not use italics and bold in CSS when you'd prefer <em> and <strong>? If em and strong are a thing to use, then they should also be able to be used in CSS like italics and bold. Also, there's a lot of cases where a span is used for italics/em and bold/strong.

Also, if you do change what em or strong does in CSS, then software to read an ePub that would read em/strong differently, might not do so correctly they no longer mean what the default says they do.

[Turtle91]

Did you read the linked document??

font-style: italic
font-weight: bold

The CSS properties for bolding and italics should be used whenever the use of bolding and italics is presentational (for example, on headings and lead-in words). CSS formatting carries no semantics, so the emphasis will not be noted by assistive technologies.

Eg you must use the proper html tags if you want the assistive device to recognize it properly… css styling alone does not cut it.

Edit for clarification:
CSS properties (italic/bold) are for presentation (visual appeal). The html tags are what trigger the assistive technology. You can add other css styling to describe elements of the ‘voice’ but italic/bold in and of themselves in css don’t mean anything to accessibility devices.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Did you read the linked document??



Eg you must use the proper html tags if you want the assistive device to recognize it properly… css styling alone does not cut it.

Edit for clarification:
CSS properties (italic/bold) are for presentation (visual appeal). The html tags are what trigger the assistive technology. You can add other css styling to describe elements of the ‘voice’ but italic/bold in and of themselves in css don’t mean anything to accessibility devices.

But that's not how it really happens. The big publishers do not use <em> and <strong> "properly". So what's the point?

[Turtle91]

Let me see if I can boil your argument down to a simple story that demonstrates the absurdity of that argument.

I once went on walkabout and managed to meet a few of the aboriginal groups. One thing I noticed was that anytime someone needed to dig a hole, they used their spoons. I contemplated mentioning they use the shiny new shovels that were specifically designed for such a purpose; ones that were sitting in their stack of tools, freely available; but then decided against the idea. You see, in my, not very extensive, travels, I hadn’t seen anyone using a shovel so I asked myself “what’s the point” of using tools as they are intended when I could just use my spoon?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Let me see if I can boil your argument down to a simple story that demonstrates the absurdity of that argument.

Can you show me any eBooks from the big publishers that uses <em> correctly. That means using <em> and <i> in the same eBook.

[Turtle91]

Can you show me an aboriginal group that doesn't use spoons??

Your argument is ridiculous.

Are you saying that every book that a big publisher puts out is perfect?
Are you saying that every publisher follows best practices?
Are you saying that every publisher has ALWAYS followed the requirements that have just recently become required?

You see, there have been a crap-ton of books published over the last 10+ years...how long has it been since Accessibility standards have become required - by Law in the EU??? So... you saying that you haven't seen it (yet) from a big publisher really means absolutely nothing.

It means even less whether or not you use these requirements in your own personal books....

What really matters is that you don't come on this forum and tell people that it is not important, when in reality, and by law, it is required.

edit: another article you probably won't read...but is informative to those who care about selling their books...

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Can you show me an aboriginal group that doesn't use spoons??

Your argument is ridiculous.

Are you saying that every book that a big publisher puts out is perfect?
Are you saying that every publisher follows best practices?
Are you saying that every publisher has ALWAYS followed the requirements that have just recently become required?

You see, there have been a crap-ton of books published over the last 10+ years...how long has it been since Accessibility standards have become required - by Law in the EU??? So... you saying that you haven't seen it (yet) from a big publisher really means absolutely nothing.

It means even less whether or not you use these requirements in your own personal books....

What really matters is that you don't come on this forum and tell people that it is not important, when in reality, and by law, it is required.

edit: another article you probably won't read...but is informative to those who care about selling their books...

I'm saying I've never seen a "correct" eBook from a major publisher using a combination of <em> and <i>. So because of this, what is the point of <em> if it's not going to be used correctly?

[Turtle91]

So someone else breaks the law...then it's ok for you to do it too...and promote breaking the law to others?

-OR-

Say, "yes, the publishers in the past haven't done a very good job, but we can do it batter from now on...."

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm saying I've never seen a "correct" eBook from a major publisher using a combination of <em> and <i>. So because of this, what is the point of <em> if it's not going to be used correctly?

While not very common, I have seen several books from major publishers that used <i> for visual and <em> for semantic markup. In two of them, they defined an italic class in the stylesheet used with the em (<em class="italic"). Several assistive reading programs will just say <i>HMS Beagle</i> while emphasizing <em>Use protective clothing when working with flames</em>.

Yes they are rare as yet. I am hoping they become more common as supporting the use of assistive technology becomes more important.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

So someone else breaks the law...then it's ok for you to do it too...and promote breaking the law to others?

-OR-

Say, "yes, the publishers in the past haven't done a very good job, but we can do it batter from now on...."

Thing is, why would I waste my time trying to decide if some text should <i> or <em> when I'm going to be reading it and the text on screen won't be any different? That would make editing eBooks a lot more work for no return.