Preventing breaks at the end of a line.

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Link to ADE 2.0.1: http://www.adobe.com/support/digital...downloads.html

Thanks!

[graycyn]

I know this thread is getting long in the tooth, but it did seem like the place to ask....

I'm working on the public domain book "Under the Lilacs" by Louisa May Alcott for the MobileRead library, going from a 1910 edition. (I know it's taking me forever, but I need SUN for my old eyes to proofread against print and haven't had much this year so far. Hopefully summer is coming...)

This text is RIDDLED with trailing em-dashes of this sort:

<p><snip text>that young person answered respectfully,⁠⁠⁠—</p>

I'd prefer that em-dashes don't break off and end up on a line by themselves, because it could be distracting.

I am using the Word Joiner HTML entity ( & # 8 2 8 8 ; ) between the comma and the em-dash. I'm assuming that there is no need for the word joiner between the word and the comma?


What about an example like this, where there's a comma, right closing quotation mark and THEN an em-dash? Will all that hold together with *bags* if the joiner is used between the right quote and the em-dash or do I need to have the word joiner between the word AND each punctuation mark?

<p><snip text>mumbling something about “bothering old bags,”—</p>

or this:

<p>after the other—”</p>

Do I need the word joiner before AND after the em-dash?


Thanks, y'all!

[JSWolf]

Is it correct to have the em-dash like it is ion the eBook? Does a printed copy of the 1910 edition do the same thing?

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Is it correct to have the em-dash like it is ion the eBook? Does a printed copy of the 1910 edition do the same thing?

Light is fading quickly here, if I have time and weather is cooperative tomorrow, I'll try and get a few photos of how text appears in the print book so you can see for yourself exactly how it looks in print.

While I plan to try and be true to the printed text, definitely not planning to retain 1910 era justification and punctuation spacing! It would neither be pretty or practical!

Example (typed including all spacing or lack thereof as seen in print):

" I shall have to go off early, so there won't be any chance.  Yes, there will, — I 'll tell you how to do it. Let me read while I drive up the cows.  Squire likes

This bit is from chapter 6, bottom of page 49.

Notice the space between the opening quote and "I". And the space in "I'll" and the LACK of same in "won't" above. This happens throughout the entire book with contractions! Notice the space before and after the em-dash. Double space between sentences. That is how it appears on the page!

But not in my ebook!

I don't plan to sprinkle the word joiner entity about in the MIDDLE of sentences either, ONLY where sentences END with the abundantly trailing em-dashes. Reflowable text needs to flow, right?

I'd just like to prevent the possibility of LOTS of orphan em-dashes. *IF* y'all think that's wise! Otherwise, I'll leave 'em be, if they break off, they break off.

I swear, Alcott trails those em-dashes about like ivy down the wall hiding the door in The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett ... thick and heavy

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by graycyn

<p><snip text>that young person answered respectfully,⁠⁠⁠—</p>

After the comma, your code accidentally has 3 WORD JOINERS in it.

Cut that down to 1 (or 0).

This is one of the dangers of using some of these invisible Unicode characters:

• It becomes very tough to see when you've made errors
• You may accidentally cause MORE bugs/harm than the problem you're trying to solve.

Originally Posted by graycyn

I'd prefer that em-dashes don't break off and end up on a line by themselves, because it could be distracting.

I'd still stick with the advice I've been saying for years:

In ebooks, don't worry about quirks in EM DASH linebreaks.

Leave it up to each device's/program's linebreak algorithms.

Originally Posted by graycyn

I am using the Word Joiner HTML entity ( & # 8 2 8 8 ; ) between the comma and the em-dash. I'm assuming that there is no need for the word joiner between the word and the comma?

No need between word and comma.

Originally Posted by graycyn

[...] Will all that hold together with *bags* if the joiner is used between the right quote and the em-dash or do I need to have the word joiner between the word AND each punctuation mark?

<p><snip text>mumbling something about “bothering old bags,”—</p>

or this:

<p>after the other—”</p>

Do I need the word joiner before AND after the em-dash?

Again, I wouldn't worry about this word joiner stuff.

But, if you had to pull my teeth, this is where WORD JOINER would be placed around the EM DASH:

• Example #1: BEFORE
• Example #2: BEFORE + AFTER

* * *

Side Note: Similar issue happens with odd linebreaking around the ELLIPSIS character + other punctuation.

For more info on that, see my posts in:

• 2021: "How to search for ellipses"

and all the linked threads which go into extreme detail.

Side Note #2: Most devices handle the ELLIPSIS character properly though, where the EM DASH is much trickier, because many languages use them as "Quotation Dashes":

• 2019: "No break space and alignment"

You also have languages that use every single possible combination of quotation marks... so you can't just say EM DASH + RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTE stick together 100% of the time.

Examples of EM DASHES in the middle of text are common, like:

• The man—“Tiny”—was the size of a mountain. (English)
• The man—”Tiny”—was the size of a mountain. (Finnish)

so if you "fixed" linebreaking for dialogue, you'd "break it" for parentheticals!

(Not to mention, the linebreaking algorithms should/would have to be context- + language-aware!)

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Does a printed copy of the 1910 edition do the same thing?

Yes, the printed copy has that. See Page 99 in this Archive.org version where graycyn's first example was.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Is it correct to have the em-dash like it is ion the eBook?

Looks like every piece of Dialogue got its own new paragraph, so they split:

• Action/Beats
  
  • + EM DASH
• Dialogue

Example:

Ben shivered as if the mere thought hurt him, as he said, in a grim tone,—

“They might have cut Sanch's off.”

[...]

Ben looked discouraged, but Miss Celia cheered him up again by saying,—

“Yes, he could. My father had a friend who left a little dog in Paris; [...]”

Usage of that kind wouldn't be done in modern Style Guides, but back then they did lots of different things.

Nowadays, it would most likely be done like this:

Ben shivered as if the mere thought hurt him.

“They might have cut Sanch's off,” Ben said in a grim tone.

[...]

Ben looked discouraged, but Miss Celia cheered him up again.

“Yes, he could,” Miss Celia said. “My father had a friend who left a little dog in Paris; [...]”

or:

“They might have cut Sanch's off,” Ben grimly said, shivering as if the mere thought hurt him.

[...]

Ben looked discouraged, but Miss Celia cheered him up again.

“Yes, he could,” Miss Celia said. “My father had a friend who left a little dog in Paris; [...]”

or:

Ben shivered as if the mere thought hurt him. “They might have cut Sanch's off.”

[...]

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

After the comma, your code accidentally has 3 WORD JOINERS in it.

Cut that down to 1 (or 0).

This is one of the dangers of using some of these invisible Unicode characters:

• It becomes very tough to see when you've made errors
• You may accidentally cause MORE bugs/harm than the problem you're trying to solve.

That's probably because I was struggling with getting it typed *here*. In Sigil, I have the word joiner as a preserved entity, so I *do* see it. But I think it was disappearing *here* while I was typing and I didn't realize, so I was typing it in again, and apparently again. Sorry!

I'd still stick with the advice I've been saying for years:

In ebooks, don't worry about quirks in EM DASH linebreaks.

Leave it up to each device's/program's linebreak algorithms.

Actually, when I'm doing books for myself, that's EXACTLY what I do. I *don't* really like micro-managing reflowable text! However, most books don't have quite the sheer numbers of trailing em-dashes that this particular title does. And I know people here get kind of picky about how ebooks look. Me, it doesn't bother me terribly if a line starts with an ellipsis or em-dash. I've gotten used to it.

Which is why I was asking. Because once the text is proofed, I can present it however. Free flowing or with the possibility of fewer orphan em-dashes if folks prefer that.

No need between word and comma.

Good, I didn't think so. I never see commas breaking off.

Again, I wouldn't worry about this word joiner stuff.

But, if you had to pull my teeth, this is where WORD JOINER would be placed around the EM DASH:

• Example #1: BEFORE
• Example #2: BEFORE + AFTER

* * *

Side Note: Similar issue happens with odd linebreaking around the ELLIPSIS character + other punctuation.

I'll think it over. I was noticing the orphan em-dashes more than usual, so I thought I should perhaps try to prevent those.

Your examples are what I thought would be the right placement, *if* I decide to use word joiners. THANKS, I will check out your posts!

I've been having fun making ebooks for myself out of my old childhood books, but those I can't share because of copyright. This title, I can!

I like modern AND old styles. Not to the extent of trying to duplicate all the crazy spacing from 1910, but the little oddities like the commas and em-dashes add charm and give me that old book feeling. Likewise for to-days and to-morrows. I grew up with those reading my dad's books. Nostalgia....

Meanwhile, anyone who objects to me just letting the text flow, speak up. The book is for MobileRead, so I'm happy to do what folks prefer, if, of course there is any consensus at all on that.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by graycyn

That's probably because I was struggling with getting it typed *here*.

Okay. Just wanted to make sure.

Originally Posted by graycyn

In Sigil, I have the word joiner as a preserved entity, so I *do* see it.

What's the word joiner entity?

Originally Posted by graycyn

But I think it was disappearing *here* while I was typing and I didn't realize, so I was typing it in again, and apparently again. Sorry!

Also, I assume buggy implementations in programs too.

I copied/pasted your post into Notepad++ and saw very odd display issues on the WORD JOINER line. (Parts of the text appeared bold.)

Then it had VERY odd:

• highlighting of words
• placement of | when clicking in the line

I haven't ever tested the WORD JOINER inside of ebooks, across devices/apps, but similar bugs may carry over there too.

(For example, when trying to search or drag your finger to highlight text for notes.)

Originally Posted by graycyn

Good, I didn't think so. I never see commas breaking off.

In one of those linked posts, I linked to the actual Unicode linebreaking specs.

The EM DASH is in a unique class all on its own:

B2: Break Opportunity Before and After (B/A/XP)

• 2014 EM DASH

The EM DASH is used to set off parenthetical text. Normally, it is used without spaces. However, this is language dependent. For example, in Swedish, spaces are used around the EM DASH. Line breaks can occur before and after an EM DASH. Because EM DASHes are sometimes used in pairs instead of a single quotation dash, the default behavior is not to break the line between even though not all fonts use connecting glyphs for the EM DASH.

Some languages, including Spanish, use EM DASH to set off a parenthetical, and the surrounding dashes should not be broken from the contained text. In this usage there is space on the side where it can be broken. This does not conflict with symmetrical usages, either with spaces on both sides of the em-dash or with no spaces.

I can't recall seeing anything that actually does language-aware linebreaking, but I have seen differences in linebreaking across apps. (Like when I tested THIN SPACE back in 2016.)

Originally Posted by graycyn

I like modern AND old styles. Not to the extent of trying to duplicate all the crazy spacing from 1910, but the little oddities like the commas and em-dashes add charm and give me that old book feeling.

That wasn't "crazy spacing". Just different rules/kerning.

For readability, certain punctuation got (differently-sized) space around it.

Back then, there was more judicious usage of all the different types of spaces:

• U+2000 = EN QUAD
• U+2001 = EM QUAD
• U+2009 = THIN SPACE
• U+200A = HAIR SPACE
• [...]

Throughout the 20th century—because of technological/economic reasons—most editing/typography boiled down further and further towards "no space" or "single space".

Currently, the only real places these spaces still exist is:

• Maths / Science
  
  • Especially Units + Equations
    
  • For all details/examples of usage, see: "Mathematics into Type" by Ellen Swanson (PDF) (American Mathematical Society, 1999).
• Languages where punctuation-spacing still matters
  
  • Like French « guillemets ».
• Hidden inside font kerning tables.

* * *

Side Note: If you want some interesting history on this, it's similar to the myth that "double space after period is wrong":

• Heraclitean River: "Why two spaces after a period isn’t wrong (or, the lies typographers tell about history)"

In that blog post, he goes through and explains the older typography / Style Guides.

For example, EM QUADs were put after sentence-ending periods.

Side Note #2: It's only been recent that proper typographical spacing has been making a resurgence.

LaTeX has been holding strong, enabling the older (better) style of typography. (See my Units post above.)

And while searching for some info, I just ran across this article with some good examples:

• Smashing Magazine.com: "Micro-Typography: How To Space And Kern Punctuation Marks And Other Symbols"

Finally, the web is also gaining some of this stuff, slowly. And fonts are always getting better kerning inside (so a lot of this spacing issues can be handled more automatically).

Originally Posted by graycyn

Meanwhile, anyone who objects to me just letting the text flow, speak up. The book is for MobileRead, so I'm happy to do what folks prefer, if, of course there is any consensus at all on that.

Meh, if you want to do all those WORD JOINERS and do them properly, have at it. :P

Maybe yours can be the EPUB everyone points to on how to do them properly. (And use it to test across real-life devices.)

[JSWolf]

I doubt word joiners will work properly in most cases. I suggest youy test it first before going all out.

[graycyn]

My bad, sorry I called it "crazy spacing," Tex2002ans. I agree, it wasn't, it's more that it just felt inconsistent to me, what with spacing after an opening quote, but no spacing after a closing quote and then the variance of some contracted words having a space and some not!

As for the word joiner, I had done some testing and wasn't seeing any particular issues, but I didn't try testing search or highlighting.

It's no biggie, I really DIDN'T want to put them in, it was more that there've been so many discussions of typography and what people like and how things should look here, I just wanted to offer the option.

I mean, I've seen the assorted discussions here over ellipsis character vs. constructed ellipsis, the discussions over whether to use an em-dash or an en-dash and spaces, all that! I figure mostly, there's no right or wrong, just personal preference.

The good news is that there are ZERO ellipses in Under the Lilacs!

I stripped the word joiners out of the test chapter I put them in. They are gone, so there's that.

Gotta run, much to do today, including hopefully update the file with another two chapters of corrections.