How to go to a page on Kindle??? Locations are annoying. - Page 4

Dr. Bob · 09-13-2010, 07:39 AM

To me the whole point is that once you use computer technology you're not restricted to using only one single method to designate a location in a text. It shouldn't be an "or" choice but an "and" choice. The question Amazon should have asked is: "What methods shall we offer our customers in addition to the page numbers they have been used to all of their life and will expect to be there, to find their way in the ebooks they pay us for?" Frankly I have few illusions that the main reason for their choice was that it's the method that requires the least effort on their part because location numbers can simply be calculated and require no human intervention/effort and human effort equates cost a.k.a. "money".

The fact that page numbers are not accurate across different paper publications of a book is not important. Obviously with paper books there is no alternative. The page size and font type and size will dictate spread over how many pages a text will be. But with computers? The possibilities are endless. First of all it will be no problem at all to keep the same page numbering between different editions of ebooks as long as the core text with the same page break codes doesn't change. Added introductions at the beginning? In print Roman numerals are used to separate numbering of parts of a book. Roman numerals could be used in ebooks and reading devices/software too. But you'd have to think of it and implement it before production. What else is there? Negative page numbers? That would also be an option. If Amazon releases a new edition with a foreword by someone will they have a method to keep locations the same in the core text as in the previous edition?

But hey... you can do anything(!!!) with computers. And e-readers are just (dedicated) computers. So at the bottom of the screen of whatever device you use it could(!) say:

Preamble - Page 1 (etc.)
Introduction - Page 1 (etc.)
Prologue - Page 1 (etc.)
Chapter 1 - Page 1 (etc.)
Chapter 2 - Page 32 (etc.)
Epilogue - Page 212 (etc.)
Or even:
Epilogue - Page 1 (etc.)

But also variations like:
Chapter One - How it all started - Page 1 (etc.)

Geddit? You are free to use any way you (the hardware and software designers let you) choose to tell you where you are in an e-text. And any of as many ways you want (the choices made by the hardware and software designers let you).

You know how on DVDs you can select a Language audio track? Or a commentary track? Or subtitles in many languages? Or even an extended version with some of the cut scenes put back in? Worried about inconsistencies with regards to page numbering? How about the following?

You open an e-book on your device which would have a settings menu with a page numbering sub-menu with the following choices:

Page numbering:
First edition - 1984 - Hardcover
First edition - 1984 - Paperback
Second edition - 1995 - Hardcover - With introduction by the author.
Second edition - 1995 - Paperback - With introduction by the author.
Selected works - 2008 - second of three books.
E-book - Chapter/Paragraph.
E-book - Chapter/Sentence.
E-book - Uniform Page Numbering (a yet fictional standard page numbering method).
E-book - Locations.

Notice how these e-book standards can do away with editions linked to a particular year.

And it would even be possible to show several of these at the same time:

Footer, Left: First edition - 1984 - Hardcover.
Footer, Centre: Chapter/Paragraph.
Footer, Right: Locations.

As far as I'm concerned this whole discussion is a non-issue if only hardware and software developers (and the business managers that employ them) would have an adequate vision on what the transition of print to e-book should offer us.

Unfortunately.... "The incompetents are running the Earth." And we risk getting stuck with bad choices made by those in the positions to make these choices for us.

Nicky_oz · 09-14-2010, 06:45 AM

It looks like the Kindle 3 doesn't have page numbers either?

I couldn't work it out from the user guide or the Kindle itself, interesting to hear what people think on this thread, however I find it a bit pointless, locations are only good for a Kindle..if you are transferring accross a device that doesn't support 'locations' then it's just useless. Hopefully Amazon will fix it next time. i have to say, with my Nook and on the medium font the page numbers were the same as the printed book (compared side by side).

TheKindleWorm · 09-14-2010, 07:09 AM

I have to say I find it surprising how much importance many people seem to place on page numbers. If you want to remember certain parts of a book, use bookmarks. If you want to relate to a printed book, type in a search term from the printed matter to get to the same spot in your Kindle. And if you want to know how far you are in a book, just look at the progress bar at the bottom which shows the percentage read.

Just seems like people are really digging to find criticisms sometimes - or maybe it's because I'm more of a "my glass is half full" type person and I always like to look at the positives!

pashlit · 09-14-2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKindleWorm

I have to say I find it surprising how much importance many people seem to place on page numbers. If you want to remember certain parts of a book, use bookmarks. If you want to relate to a printed book, type in a search term from the printed matter to get to the same spot in your Kindle. And if you want to know how far you are in a book, just look at the progress bar at the bottom which shows the percentage read.

Just seems like people are really digging to find criticisms sometimes - or maybe it's because I'm more of a "my glass is half full" type person and I always like to look at the positives!

Its not because of that. Its because what is more comfortable for people. Yes, at least having a choice between locations and page numbers would be a good idea. Its not hard I think to implement this feature. I dont find locations that difficult but I would definitely prefer using page numbers. I am not saying locations should be removed. If people like em, let em be. But I just want to have page numbers as well as many other people want.

TheKindleWorm · 09-14-2010, 09:22 AM

Yes I'm starting to wonder if it is perhaps like some sort of nostalgia tied up with reading paper books? Perhaps some people also miss the smell or feel of paper books too - my father always sniffs new magazines or books which I find odd but well ...

I guess Amazon maybe should think about implementing page numbers as well seeing as so many people seem to feel so strongly about it.

Percyiris · 09-14-2010, 09:43 AM

Well, I'll throw in my two cents; I can't seem to get used to locations either. The page/location option would be my preference. As a previous writer noted, it wasn't a deal breaker though. I never really used locations anyway on my DX. It's this discussion that got me thinking about it.

Madmanden · 09-14-2010, 09:50 AM

I think I mentioned it before, but for people who like having page numbers, dividing the location by ten (just remove the last digit) seems to work pretty well. So if a book has 3752 locations = 375 pages.

JSWolf · 09-14-2010, 09:57 AM

I do like the way ADE does page numbers. They aren't perfect, but at least they work well enough regardless of the orientation/font size.

warp · 09-14-2010, 10:25 AM

For me locations are the intelligent answer to the problem how different screen sizes, font sizes etc affect the book page numbering. Sure there is a difference to physical books, but while reading I watch the percentage and not the location number...

gca3020 · 09-14-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Bob

To me the whole point is that once you use computer technology you're not restricted to using only one single method to designate a location in a text. It shouldn't be an "or" choice but an "and" choice. The question Amazon should have asked is: "What methods shall we offer our customers in addition to the page numbers they have been used to all of their life and will expect to be there, to find their way in the ebooks they pay us for?" Frankly I have few illusions that the main reason for their choice was that it's the method that requires the least effort on their part because location numbers can simply be calculated and require no human intervention/effort and human effort equates cost a.k.a. "money".

The fact that page numbers are not accurate across different paper publications of a book is not important. Obviously with paper books there is no alternative. The page size and font type and size will dictate spread over how many pages a text will be. But with computers? The possibilities are endless. First of all it will be no problem at all to keep the same page numbering between different editions of ebooks as long as the core text with the same page break codes doesn't change. Added introductions at the beginning? In print Roman numerals are used to separate numbering of parts of a book. Roman numerals could be used in ebooks and reading devices/software too. But you'd have to think of it and implement it before production. What else is there? Negative page numbers? That would also be an option. If Amazon releases a new edition with a foreword by someone will they have a method to keep locations the same in the core text as in the previous edition?

But hey... you can do anything(!!!) with computers. And e-readers are just (dedicated) computers. So at the bottom of the screen of whatever device you use it could(!) say:

Preamble - Page 1 (etc.)
Introduction - Page 1 (etc.)
Prologue - Page 1 (etc.)
Chapter 1 - Page 1 (etc.)
Chapter 2 - Page 32 (etc.)
Epilogue - Page 212 (etc.)
Or even:
Epilogue - Page 1 (etc.)

But also variations like:
Chapter One - How it all started - Page 1 (etc.)

Geddit? You are free to use any way you (the hardware and software designers let you) choose to tell you where you are in an e-text. And any of as many ways you want (the choices made by the hardware and software designers let you).

You know how on DVDs you can select a Language audio track? Or a commentary track? Or subtitles in many languages? Or even an extended version with some of the cut scenes put back in? Worried about inconsistencies with regards to page numbering? How about the following?

You open an e-book on your device which would have a settings menu with a page numbering sub-menu with the following choices:

Page numbering:
First edition - 1984 - Hardcover
First edition - 1984 - Paperback
Second edition - 1995 - Hardcover - With introduction by the author.
Second edition - 1995 - Paperback - With introduction by the author.
Selected works - 2008 - second of three books.
E-book - Chapter/Paragraph.
E-book - Chapter/Sentence.
E-book - Uniform Page Numbering (a yet fictional standard page numbering method).
E-book - Locations.

Notice how these e-book standards can do away with editions linked to a particular year.

And it would even be possible to show several of these at the same time:

Footer, Left: First edition - 1984 - Hardcover.
Footer, Centre: Chapter/Paragraph.
Footer, Right: Locations.

As far as I'm concerned this whole discussion is a non-issue if only hardware and software developers (and the business managers that employ them) would have an adequate vision on what the transition of print to e-book should offer us.

Unfortunately.... "The incompetents are running the Earth." And we risk getting stuck with bad choices made by those in the positions to make these choices for us.

The problem with this approach is how expensive it would be to do. You would have to manually have a person go in and number these sections, then have a copy editor double-check.

The comparison to DVDs isn't really valid, since a DVD represents far more man-hours for a single product than a book does, and therefore will likely have little touches like this. Imagine if any time a publisher wanted to put a book from their back catalog in Kindle format, they had to have a person spend (at minimum) a day adding in section headers, or worse going through 5-10 old editions and plugging in page numbers manually?

Let's say a single man-day of work (though I think that's being *very* conservative). Now say they want to do this for 2,000 books in their back catalog. That's 5.5 man-years.

Now compare that to an automated process that creates a new location every 128 bytes (characters). This process is entirely automated and will likely take a few seconds per book. All of a sudden you can do 2000 books in less than a day.

I'm not saying that e-books don't deserve better treatment, certainly we've all run into more typos and editing mistakes than exist in p-books, but that right now it's simply not profitable to spend a lot of time giving them the attention they deserve.

Now me personally, I've only ever really used the percentage progress bar at the bottom of the Kindle (in the few weeks since I've had one), and it does me fine. I do really like the tip about dividing location by 10, however, and will certainly keep that one in mind, but I really do think if you can pull yourself out of a p-book paradigm, Amazon's solution does make the most sense.

Also keep in mind that having a lot of settings and options to change things is not something that Amazon wants to do. They want their devices to appeal to a broad demographic, not just gadget people (and lets face it, if you're on an internet message board, you're already more of a gadget person than the general populace). My fiancé's grandmother saw the Kindle last weekend and immediately (within 2 minutes) knew how to use it. She has never owned a computer or gone on the internet. This is a woman who needs directions to operate a digital photo frame. If Amazon wants to be a success in this business, it's her and people like her they need to grab. Not you and me.

Dr. Bob · 09-14-2010, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gca3020

The problem with this approach is how expensive it would be to do. You would have to manually have a person go in and number these sections, then have a copy editor double-check.

The comparison to DVDs isn't really valid, since a DVD represents far more man-hours for a single product than a book does, and therefore will likely have little touches like this. Imagine if any time a publisher wanted to put a book from their back catalog in Kindle format, they had to have a person spend (at minimum) a day adding in section headers, or worse going through 5-10 old editions and plugging in page numbers manually?

If publishers have done things intelligently then they will have files with the text of at least every book they published in the last few decades. It's quite conceivable it should be possible to not only use these to create the e-books but also to extract page break positions from these files. IF they've managed these files the way they should have. This might be a pretty big if.

And effort/cost? How much effort do you think goes into getting a book ready for printing? A printer has many requirements with regards to the files they get sent by the publishers. Then there's the effort/cost of producing the physical book and let's not forget the effort/cost that is taken up by the logistics of getting the books to the readers. Once an e-book is on Amazon's servers the entire logistics process is automated. No human intervention/effort required anymore and negligible cost. What is saved there surely can be used to properly prepare a book for its e-incarnation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gca3020

Also keep in mind that having a lot of settings and options to change things is not something that Amazon wants to do. They want their devices to appeal to a broad demographic, not just gadget people (and lets face it, if you're on an internet message board, you're already more of a gadget person than the general populace). My fiancé's grandmother saw the Kindle last weekend and immediately (within 2 minutes) knew how to use it. She has never owned a computer or gone on the internet. This is a woman who needs directions to operate a digital photo frame. If Amazon wants to be a success in this business, it's her and people like her they need to grab. Not you and me.

Of course e-readers must be user-friendly but that's mostly done by selecting adequate defaults to require little or no user interaction for straightforward reading and designing a properly thought out user interface for additional tweaking of the user's preferences if he desires to do so. It needn't be more difficult than using the menus on a DVD. The presence of these menus don't seem to have impeded the sales of DVD players. E-readers manufacturers should wish for the same level of market penetration as DVD players.

In the end I think it's mostly a matter of mentality. Whether you choose to sell something that takes the least effort/cost to produce and you can get away with selling to the public without them protesting too much or whether you are motivated to offer the best product you are able to create.

I'm afraid all too many people fall into the first category.

Purple Lady · 09-16-2010, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by readingaloud

Most people would find locations more comprehensible if Amazon just divided by 10 and put in the decimal point for you. Then locations would be about the same size as pages, and it would be easier for most people to use them to get oriented in the book.

This is pretty much what my thought was - instead of 128 byte chunks of text, why not 1280 byte chunks of text and forget the decimal point? I think the problem is just that you end up with 4 digits for location and multiple locations per screen instead of 3 digits for pages which is easier to remember (for me at least)

I saw a thread a few months back that asked "when people ask what page number you are on, what do you tell them?" Since my reader uses epub which has page numbers that stay the same no matter what font size you use this question completely confused me. This explains that question for me.

xnowimcoolx · 09-16-2010, 03:20 AM

From an academic background page numbers are of the utmost importance. Although I've never asked I can't imagine any of my profs being keen on me citing a kindle number as a page number.

Once for a course I actually read a book on my kindle, used it as a source and then went to the library to track down page numbers and cited the library edition of the book rather than the kindle edition. It was a royal pain!

Page numbers should be incorporated if for only that reason.

Tomsk · 09-16-2010, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnowimcoolx

From an academic background page numbers are of the utmost importance. Although I've never asked I can't imagine any of my profs being keen on me citing a kindle number as a page number.

Once for a course I actually read a book on my kindle, used it as a source and then went to the library to track down page numbers and cited the library edition of the book rather than the kindle edition. It was a royal pain!

Page numbers should be incorporated if for only that reason.

The example you've used illustrates that page numbers are not ideal for referencing a position within a book.
Your professors would have had to obtain the same edition of the book if they wanted to check your references.

From my observations, it seems that Kindle location numbers refer to the sentences, subject to a minimum number of words per sentence.

I think the best method of referencing a position in a book would be chapter and paragraph number. Using sentence number is a bit too unwieldy especially if the position is in the middle of a long paragraph. A chapter and paragraph number would be independent of the book format (hardback, paperback, ebook, braille) and font size. There could still be differences between editions though.

For me personally I never had to bother with page numbers in pbooks, so kindle's locations or percentage bar don't bother me either.

Raheldm · 09-16-2010, 08:15 AM

During my studies the professor often had a diffrent edition of a book and I had to search through it to find the important pages. One time the professor even had to go through our book to help us with the pages because everything was messed up and nobody could follow him anymore.
I don't get the problems with the locations.

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09-13-2010, 07:39 AM	#46
Dr. Bob Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: Pocket PC, Netbook	To me the whole point is that once you use computer technology you're not restricted to using only one single method to designate a location in a text. It shouldn't be an "or" choice but an "and" choice. The question Amazon should have asked is: "What methods shall we offer our customers in addition to the page numbers they have been used to all of their life and will expect to be there, to find their way in the ebooks they pay us for?" Frankly I have few illusions that the main reason for their choice was that it's the method that requires the least effort on their part because location numbers can simply be calculated and require no human intervention/effort and human effort equates cost a.k.a. "money". The fact that page numbers are not accurate across different paper publications of a book is not important. Obviously with paper books there is no alternative. The page size and font type and size will dictate spread over how many pages a text will be. But with computers? The possibilities are endless. First of all it will be no problem at all to keep the same page numbering between different editions of ebooks as long as the core text with the same page break codes doesn't change. Added introductions at the beginning? In print Roman numerals are used to separate numbering of parts of a book. Roman numerals could be used in ebooks and reading devices/software too. But you'd have to think of it and implement it before production. What else is there? Negative page numbers? That would also be an option. If Amazon releases a new edition with a foreword by someone will they have a method to keep locations the same in the core text as in the previous edition? But hey... you can do anything(!!!) with computers. And e-readers are just (dedicated) computers. So at the bottom of the screen of whatever device you use it could(!) say: Preamble - Page 1 (etc.) Introduction - Page 1 (etc.) Prologue - Page 1 (etc.) Chapter 1 - Page 1 (etc.) Chapter 2 - Page 32 (etc.) Epilogue - Page 212 (etc.) Or even: Epilogue - Page 1 (etc.) But also variations like: Chapter One - How it all started - Page 1 (etc.) Geddit? You are free to use any way you (the hardware and software designers let you) choose to tell you where you are in an e-text. And any of as many ways you want (the choices made by the hardware and software designers let you). You know how on DVDs you can select a Language audio track? Or a commentary track? Or subtitles in many languages? Or even an extended version with some of the cut scenes put back in? Worried about inconsistencies with regards to page numbering? How about the following? You open an e-book on your device which would have a settings menu with a page numbering sub-menu with the following choices: Page numbering: First edition - 1984 - Hardcover First edition - 1984 - Paperback Second edition - 1995 - Hardcover - With introduction by the author. Second edition - 1995 - Paperback - With introduction by the author. Selected works - 2008 - second of three books. E-book - Chapter/Paragraph. E-book - Chapter/Sentence. E-book - Uniform Page Numbering (a yet fictional standard page numbering method). E-book - Locations. Notice how these e-book standards can do away with editions linked to a particular year. And it would even be possible to show several of these at the same time: Footer, Left: First edition - 1984 - Hardcover. Footer, Centre: Chapter/Paragraph. Footer, Right: Locations. As far as I'm concerned this whole discussion is a non-issue if only hardware and software developers (and the business managers that employ them) would have an adequate vision on what the transition of print to e-book should offer us. Unfortunately.... "The incompetents are running the Earth." And we risk getting stuck with bad choices made by those in the positions to make these choices for us.

09-14-2010, 06:45 AM	#47
Nicky_oz Enthusiast Posts: 37 Karma: 110 Join Date: Jul 2010 Device: Kindle PW, Nook, Kindle Keyboard, iPad.	It looks like the Kindle 3 doesn't have page numbers either? I couldn't work it out from the user guide or the Kindle itself, interesting to hear what people think on this thread, however I find it a bit pointless, locations are only good for a Kindle..if you are transferring accross a device that doesn't support 'locations' then it's just useless. Hopefully Amazon will fix it next time. i have to say, with my Nook and on the medium font the page numbers were the same as the printed book (compared side by side).

09-14-2010, 07:09 AM	#48
TheKindleWorm Guru Posts: 860 Karma: 177868 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: East Anglia UK Device: Kindle 3G, iPhone 3G, iPod 4G, PB 360, Sony 600 sold, Kindle 2i sold	I have to say I find it surprising how much importance many people seem to place on page numbers. If you want to remember certain parts of a book, use bookmarks. If you want to relate to a printed book, type in a search term from the printed matter to get to the same spot in your Kindle. And if you want to know how far you are in a book, just look at the progress bar at the bottom which shows the percentage read. Just seems like people are really digging to find criticisms sometimes - or maybe it's because I'm more of a "my glass is half full" type person and I always like to look at the positives!

09-14-2010, 09:22 AM	#50
TheKindleWorm Guru Posts: 860 Karma: 177868 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: East Anglia UK Device: Kindle 3G, iPhone 3G, iPod 4G, PB 360, Sony 600 sold, Kindle 2i sold	Yes I'm starting to wonder if it is perhaps like some sort of nostalgia tied up with reading paper books? Perhaps some people also miss the smell or feel of paper books too - my father always sniffs new magazines or books which I find odd but well ... I guess Amazon maybe should think about implementing page numbers as well seeing as so many people seem to feel so strongly about it.

09-14-2010, 09:43 AM	#51
Percyiris Member Posts: 19 Karma: 10 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Southern Ontario Device: Kindle DX Kindle 3 Wi-Fi,3G	Well, I'll throw in my two cents; I can't seem to get used to locations either. The page/location option would be my preference. As a previous writer noted, it wasn't a deal breaker though. I never really used locations anyway on my DX. It's this discussion that got me thinking about it.

09-14-2010, 09:50 AM	#52
Madmanden Enthusiast Posts: 36 Karma: 308 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3	I think I mentioned it before, but for people who like having page numbers, dividing the location by ten (just remove the last digit) seems to work pretty well. So if a book has 3752 locations = 375 pages.

09-14-2010, 09:57 AM	#53
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 75,899 Karma: 134368292 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	I do like the way ADE does page numbers. They aren't perfect, but at least they work well enough regardless of the orientation/font size.

09-14-2010, 10:25 AM	#54
warp Connoisseur Posts: 64 Karma: 16 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Berlin, Germany Device: Kindle 3 WiFi	For me locations are the intelligent answer to the problem how different screen sizes, font sizes etc affect the book page numbering. Sure there is a difference to physical books, but while reading I watch the percentage and not the location number...

09-16-2010, 03:20 AM	#58
xnowimcoolx Connoisseur Posts: 61 Karma: 3100 Join Date: May 2010 Device: Kindle 2	From an academic background page numbers are of the utmost importance. Although I've never asked I can't imagine any of my profs being keen on me citing a kindle number as a page number. Once for a course I actually read a book on my kindle, used it as a source and then went to the library to track down page numbers and cited the library edition of the book rather than the kindle edition. It was a royal pain! Page numbers should be incorporated if for only that reason.

09-16-2010, 08:15 AM	#60
Raheldm Member Posts: 19 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: hopefully soon	During my studies the professor often had a diffrent edition of a book and I had to search through it to find the important pages. One time the professor even had to go through our book to help us with the pages because everything was messed up and nobody could follow him anymore. I don't get the problems with the locations.

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