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Old 06-24-2017, 04:46 AM   #61
Thasaidon
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It's certainly true that an author (in Britain, at least) 50 years ago could assume a reasonable grasp of Latin on the part of his or her readership, because it was a subject taught in every British school. I'd guess it was probably around the early 1970s that it stopped being universally taught.
I think you are overstating the amount of Latin teaching, Harry. From what I remember it was usually only taught in Grammar Schools. I certainly never had the option to learn latin and I was in the A stream and was in school from 1953 to 1964.
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Old 06-24-2017, 04:51 AM   #62
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I think you are overstating the amount of Latin teaching, Harry. From what I remember it was usually only taught in Grammar Schools. I certainly never had the option to learn latin and I was in the A stream and was in school from 1953 to 1964.
Thank you for correcting me! It's certainly true to say, though, that far more people in the 1950s and 1960s had an understanding of Latin than do today. I wasn't taught it in school, but learnt both Latin and Greek with the OU.
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Old 06-24-2017, 06:00 AM   #63
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Although I did Latin at secondary school up until 'O' Levels (1968-1973), I don't retain much these days. Amo, amas, amat and mensa, mensa, mensam is about all I remember. I read Latin (and Greek) authors in translation nowadays.

As far as I can recall, the main use of Latin (especially for Victorian authors) was to be able to write about pornography and deviancy so that women and servants who chanced on the passage would not be able to understand it. I think Gibbon did that when writing about the homosexual amours of the Roman emperors.

The other use was to display your classical education for all to see by the use of apposite quotations.
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Old 06-24-2017, 06:25 AM   #64
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As far as I can recall, the main use of Latin (especially for Victorian authors) was to be able to write about pornography and deviancy so that women and servants who chanced on the passage would not be able to understand it. I think Gibbon did that when writing about the homosexual amours of the Roman emperors.

The other use was to display your classical education for all to see by the use of apposite quotations.
It's certainly true that Greek and Roman authors write some spectacularly vulgar texts that couldn't have been published in English in Victorian England. Some of Marshal's Epigrams in particular are quite eye-wateringly obscene .
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Old 06-24-2017, 07:17 AM   #65
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It's certainly true that Greek and Roman authors write some spectacularly vulgar texts that couldn't have been published in English in Victorian England. Some of Marshal's Epigrams in particular are quite eye-wateringly obscene .
Vulgar by whose standards?

You've got to remember that Latin has no word for homosexual sexual behaviour. The Romans just saw it as part of the normal sexual continuum. The main criterion was not to be thought effeminate by being the receptive partner.

I'll take your word for Martial; Aristophanes is bad (hem-hem) enough, especially Lysistrata.
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Old 06-24-2017, 07:25 AM   #66
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Vulgar by whose standards?

You've got to remember that Latin has no word for homosexual sexual behaviour. The Romans just saw it as part of the normal sexual continuum. The main criterion was not to be thought effeminate by being the receptive partner.

I'll take your word for Martial; Aristophanes is bad (hem-hem) enough, especially Lysistrata.
Oh, no, the homosexuality thing was, as you say, simply a matter of Victorian social taboos. Entirely normal, as you rightly point out, in both Greek and Roman society.

Martial was essentially what we'd call today a "gossip columnists", who wrote witty and exceedingly insulting epigrams (short poems) about the leading lights in the high society of late 1st-century Rome. Here's a translation of the rude ones, which I can't possibly post here :

https://www.well.com/~aquarius/martial.htm
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:03 AM   #67
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Thank you for correcting me! It's certainly true to say, though, that far more people in the 1950s and 1960s had an understanding of Latin than do today. I wasn't taught it in school, but learnt both Latin and Greek with the OU.
I think about the only place Latin is used here is in the medical field. Many of those words have Latin roots. IIRC.
Kids here now have to take one year of foreign language in school. I think the language offered is French.
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:06 AM   #68
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Oh, no, the homosexuality thing was, as you say, simply a matter of Victorian social taboos. Entirely normal, as you rightly point out, in both Greek and Roman society.

Martial was essentially what we'd call today a "gossip columnists", who wrote witty and exceedingly insulting epigrams (short poems) about the leading lights in the high society of late 1st-century Rome. Here's a translation of the rude ones, which I can't possibly post here :

https://www.well.com/~aquarius/martial.htm
I wouldn't want those updated.
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:35 AM   #69
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I think about the only place Latin is used here is in the medical field. Many of those words have Latin roots. IIRC.
Kids here now have to take one year of foreign language in school. I think the language offered is French.
I am appalled that in Texas kids aren't started on Spanish early and continued in it through high school. One year! In French!

It was a long time ago, but my (public in the American sense) high school offered French, Spanish, German, Italian, Russian, Latin and Ancient Greek, of which I took four years of French and five of Latin (two concurrently).
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:48 AM   #70
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I am appalled that in Texas kids aren't started on Spanish early and continued in it through high school. One year! In French!

It was a long time ago, but my (public in the American sense) high school offered French, Spanish, German, Italian, Russian, Latin and Ancient Greek, of which I took four years of French and five of Latin (two concurrently).
I think they do offer Spanish but it doesn't count as a foreign language course to those that already speak Spanish.
Except for the migrant workers (oilfield), our area is 45% Hispanic (Mexican) as of the last census. So Spanish is not a foreign language here.
Now many kids here do college courses in high school. So they have more choices.
I have a cousin that in September starts high school/college. She will be in 9th grade.
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Old 06-24-2017, 11:46 AM   #71
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Now many kids here do college courses in high school. So they have more choices.
I have a cousin that in September starts high school/college. She will be in 9th grade.
I know I'm coming across as buzzkill here, but it seems to me that a college course for a ninth-grader can't be much of a college course. For advanced older students, I think that's a great option, but I think that saying someone just out of middle school is qualified to take college courses just makes a mockery of higher education.
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:01 PM   #72
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I took four years of Latin in high-school (early 80s) on a strictly voluntary basis (though I believe two years of an alternate language was recommended for general college prep curriculum at the time).

Not sure that I ultimately needed it for my continuing education, but I never regretted taking it. I still occasionally fall back on that knowledge to this day.
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:05 PM   #73
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I know I'm coming across as buzzkill here, but it seems to me that a college course for a ninth-grader can't be much of a college course. For advanced older students, I think that's a great option, but I think that saying someone just out of middle school is qualified to take college courses just makes a mockery of higher education.
Unfortunately, higher education has made a mockery of itself. The freshman composition class that my daughter took in college 6 years ago (required for all students) was easier and required less writing than my Sophomore English class in high school thirty years earlier.

I find it very easy to believe that a Freshman in high school could take and pass a college course.

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Old 06-24-2017, 12:06 PM   #74
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I know I'm coming across as buzzkill here, but it seems to me that a college course for a ninth-grader can't be much of a college course. For advanced older students, I think that's a great option, but I think that saying someone just out of middle school is qualified to take college courses just makes a mockery of higher education.
I don't think you are being a buzzkill. You are totally correct.
Now I could see an advanced junior or senior taking college level courses or the prodigies doing it at a younger age but not your typical freshman.
It makes me wonder are they actually college classes and how are these kids going to do when they get to the University level courses?
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:40 PM   #75
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The basic English courses taught in college now are teaching the students things they should have learned in High School or earlier. I find it amazing that some schools have stopped teaching middle school students how to count change. It amazes me how many times I have had sales associates that are unable to count change back if something happens to the computer.
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