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Old 10-16-2018, 02:25 PM   #46
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Clearly. From your same article (which is an opinion piece rather than straight reporting):
Doesn't change the fact that the leveraged buyout vultures used the value of the company to buy it out. Nor does it change the fact that, when these vultures bought Toys-R-Us, the company had $2.3 billion in cash. Nor does it change the fact that they charged exorbitant consultant fees. Nor does it change the fact that Toys-R-Us, thanks to the loan the leverage buyout vultures used to buy it, were paying about a half a billion in interest per year, for fifteen years. This is how leverage buyouts work. They should be illegal.
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:27 PM   #47
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Some LBOs work out well for the company; they're not all about vulturing.

DELL being one case where going private allowed the company to retool away from Wall Street pressures. BAM seems to be surviving after going private, too.
One of the big differences here is that the original founder was part of the leveraged buyout. A lot of good companies have been destroyed by leveraged buyouts.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:04 PM   #48
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Doesn't change the fact that the leveraged buyout vultures used the value of the company to buy it out. Nor does it change the fact that, when these vultures bought Toys-R-Us, the company had $2.3 billion in cash. Nor does it change the fact that they charged exorbitant consultant fees. Nor does it change the fact that Toys-R-Us, thanks to the loan the leverage buyout vultures used to buy it, were paying about a half a billion in interest per year, for fifteen years. This is how leverage buyouts work. They should be illegal.
None of that makes Toys R Us financially viable either. They hadn't been doing well since well before they were bought out. There's a reason they were up for sale in the first place. They continued to not do well, though they did try various things like the kids and baby stores.

The leveraged buyout is a nasty bit of business, but Toys wasn't doing well, just like B&N aren't doing well. If those same investors do the same thing to B&N will it suddenly be their fault the company goes out of business?

On the upside, all this talk of leveraged buyouts has prompted me to add the 1963 Japanese classic High and Low to my Netflix queue.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:25 PM   #49
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They're even doing it to a company like Verizon now. They brought in the CEO who decimated Siemens and he's overseeing the ripping apart of Verizon. Short term profits for the greedy vultures, hundreds of thousands out of work.
well that is truly stupid

Verizon is essentially Ma Bell reborn, and killing it off is the stupidest thing I ever heard.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:51 PM   #50
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None of that makes Toys R Us financially viable either. They hadn't been doing well since well before they were bought out. There's a reason they were up for sale in the first place. They continued to not do well, though they did try various things like the kids and baby stores.
When you're paying out half a billion dollars in interest per year, there is no way you're going to do well — even when sales do come back, as they were. It stymies everything, doesn't allow you to upgrade or even properly stock the stores. And the talk about bringing Toy-R-Us back is also includes bringing Babys-R-Us back, so apparently the decision to start these wasn't that bad.

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Old 10-16-2018, 03:53 PM   #51
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well that is truly stupid

Verizon is essentially Ma Bell reborn, and killing it off is the stupidest thing I ever heard.
Apparently they think the parts are worth more than the whole. For a while there they were to trying to change themselves into Google. But that's what usually happens when a company starts flailing.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:30 PM   #52
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well that is truly stupid

Verizon is essentially Ma Bell reborn, and killing it off is the stupidest thing I ever heard.
AT&T won't mind.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:47 PM   #53
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AT&T won't mind.
The real AT&T already committed a similar type of suicide. This is the SouthWest Bell incarnation of AT&T. But you're right, the new AT&T, no doubt, will be more than happy to take up Verizon's slack.
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Old 10-17-2018, 07:05 AM   #54
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well that is truly stupid

Verizon is essentially Ma Bell reborn, and killing it off is the stupidest thing I ever heard.
It would be stupid if it was even remotely true. Verizon is betting the farm on 5G and focusing all their efforts in that direction. It's going to take a _lot_ of money to pull off, so the idea that Verizon is being torn apart by vultures is ludicrous. Is it a good bet? We will have to see, but Verizon is going to be spending billions and billions of dollars over the next several years to build out a 5G network.

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Old 10-17-2018, 07:10 AM   #55
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Apparently they think the parts are worth more than the whole. For a while there they were to trying to change themselves into Google. But that's what usually happens when a company starts flailing.
I have no idea where you get some of this stuff, but it's a very good example of why you should not believe everything you read on the internet. Try googling Verizon and 5G. Verizon has been focused on network for a long time. That's why they are still the largest of the wireless companies. They are selling off the old landline properties, but the new CEO has been brought in to focus on wireless and network.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:37 PM   #56
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I have no idea where you get some of this stuff, but it's a very good example of why you should not believe everything you read on the internet. Try googling Verizon and 5G. Verizon has been focused on network for a long time. That's why they are still the largest of the wireless companies. They are selling off the old landline properties, but the new CEO has been brought in to focus on wireless and network.
5G and VoLTE is not working out. And I don't have to Google. My brother worked for Verizon until a recent layoff. They're now offering an additional 44,000 workers a buyout and are trying to force 5,000 more to change their employment to an Indian based contractor (or stay until the new employees are trained). (Although a threat of a class-section suit seems to have stymied that plan.) They're also planning on contracting out (laying off) all the Verizon store employees to non-Verizon employees. Their attempt to become another "Google" has failed miserably and they've recently shuttered Go90 (where they had sunk billions). I've worked in the telecommunications business for years and watch these things closely. Verizon is flailing and they've brought in the CEO that decimated Siemens to do the same to Verizon. They figure its parts are worth more than the whole. They're also drowning in debt.
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:04 PM   #57
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5G and VoLTE is not working out. And I don't have to Google. My brother worked for Verizon until a recent layoff. They're now offering an additional 44,000 workers a buyout and are trying to force 5,000 more to change their employment to an Indian based contractor (or stay until the new employees are trained). (Although a threat of a class-section suit seems to have stymied that plan.) They're also planning on contracting out (laying off) all the Verizon store employees to non-Verizon employees. Their attempt to become another "Google" has failed miserably and they've recently shuttered Go90 (where they had sunk billions). I've worked in the telecommunications business for years and watch these things closely. Verizon is flailing and they've brought in the CEO that decimated Siemens to do the same to Verizon. They figure its parts are worth more than the whole. They're also drowning in debt.
Got me curious.

On the one hand, from 2017:


https://seekingalpha.com/article/406...-elephant-room


And on the other:


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/expec...160000449.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrenc.../#b584ac14068e

Today it's AT&T that looks suspicious to the money guys:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/...s-verizon.aspx

https://www.barrons.com/articles/at-...yet-1534963585

Things change fast.

(Me, I like diversified companies. One trick ponies are higher risk than narrow focus companies precisely because times change fast.)
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:08 PM   #58
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5G and VoLTE is not working out. And I don't have to Google. My brother worked for Verizon until a recent layoff. They're now offering an additional 44,000 workers a buyout and are trying to force 5,000 more to change their employment to an Indian based contractor (or stay until the new employees are trained). (Although a threat of a class-section suit seems to have stymied that plan.) They're also planning on contracting out (laying off) all the Verizon store employees to non-Verizon employees. Their attempt to become another "Google" has failed miserably and they've recently shuttered Go90 (where they had sunk billions). I've worked in the telecommunications business for years and watch these things closely. Verizon is flailing and they've brought in the CEO that decimated Siemens to do the same to Verizon. They figure its parts are worth more than the whole. They're also drowning in debt.
I work for Verizon. Yea, stinks if you aren't part of what they consider the core functionality, but given that 5G is just now being trialed, it's absurd to claim that 5G has failed. None of what you are describing even remotely approaches vultures selling off assets. It's standard outsourcing and cutting back on work force, something that most large corporations go through every so often. I have no idea what the future will bring or what management plans, but the idea that they are going to sell off the pieces is ludicrous.

Once again, they are betting the farm on 5G, which is just now being trialed in various cities. There isn't even any phones that support 5G yet. Verizon moved from 2nd to 1st by going all in when they moved from 3G to 4G before anyone else. It worked out quite well for them. Yes, I was working for them at that time and yes, they did a certain amount of layoffs at that time to focus on 4G. I expect that move to 5G will be just as big a boost. There are a ton of articles about 5G out there. It's going to cost a lot of money, but it can also make a lot of money.

Most US corporations have a lot of debt, including companies like Apple and Amazon. Given how long we have been extremely low interests rates, it makes a lot of sense. Now that interest rates are starting to rise, you will likely see companies cut back on their debt.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:49 AM   #59
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A few more details on the lawsuits.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1N42YC

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-of-fired-ceo
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