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Old 10-05-2018, 03:34 PM   #46
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Why? What do I care about people who shouldn't be working in competitive environments?
Because I once again made the mistake of assuming that you were asking a legitimate question where you were interested in the response rather than asking a dismissive rhetorical question.
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:36 PM   #47
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:49 PM   #48
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Because I once again made the mistake of assuming that you were asking a legitimate question where you were interested in the response rather than asking a dismissive rhetorical question.
I know. I make that mistake with you all the time too. Go figure.

It wasn't, however, a rhetorical question. I really want to know why I should worry about people who chose the wrong jobs for their temperament/demeanor. Or (and this one's not rhetorical either) are you under the delusion that every person is equipped (temperamentally and mentally) to do every job they might want to do?

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Old 10-05-2018, 04:11 PM   #49
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I know. I make that mistake with you all the time too. Go figure.

It wasn't, however, a rhetorical question. I really want to know why I should worry about people who chose the wrong jobs for their temperament/demeanor. Or (and this one's not rhetorical either) are you under the delusion that every person is equipped (temperamentally and mentally) to do every job they might want to do?
Oh, I rarely ask rhetorical questions. Of course, I also don't ask why I should check out a book or url after asking someone to provide me with who said something.

As to why you should worry, well you certainly don't have to if you don't want to, but it does explain why a given company has a less than stellar reputation as a place to work and would have to pay above market rates to attract employees. That is what this thread is about isn't it?
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Old 10-05-2018, 04:27 PM   #50
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As to why you should worry, well you certainly don't have to if you don't want to, but it does explain why a given company has a less than stellar reputation as a place to work and would have to pay above market rates to attract employees. That is what this thread is about isn't it?
Yes. That's what this thread is about. But I'm questioning the accuracy of that assessment. One man's book and the New York Times does not truth make. I believe the reputation to be entirely blown out of proportion. The articles I've seen that condemn the Amazon workplace do not convince me--even if they're entirely accurate! The "horrors" I read about Amazon sound like petty whingeing to me. "Waaaaaaah. They want me to work hard for long hours and make hard decisions about my coworkers."
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:13 PM   #51
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Yes. That's what this thread is about. But I'm questioning the accuracy of that assessment. One man's book and the New York Times does not truth make. I believe the reputation to be entirely blown out of proportion. The articles I've seen that condemn the Amazon workplace do not convince me--even if they're entirely accurate! The "horrors" I read about Amazon sound like petty whingeing to me. "Waaaaaaah. They want me to work hard for long hours and make hard decisions about my coworkers."
It's all relative. Certainly if you like working long hours under lots of stress to enrich someone else, then hey go for it. On the other hand, there are a lot of places out there that don't require that level of effort or stress. Thus, Amazon finds themselves having to pay more than those competing for those workers to both hire and retire workers.

In my career as a programmer, I've worked in sweatshops where 200% turnover a year was considered normal, I've also worked in large corporations where most employees treated it as a 9 to 5 job with good pay and benefits and 10 to 30 years with the company was the norm. Most quality programming contractors that I know have a base rate that are looking for and will adjust that rate based on how much they like the job.
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:30 PM   #52
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It's all relative. Certainly if you like working long hours under lots of stress to enrich someone else, then hey go for it.
It's not about "like." It's about paying the electric bill and putting food on the table. No one is entitled to like what they do for a living. They're certainly allowed to seek a job they like better (if they're the type that allows stress to get to them, and haven't discovered how to leave work at work), and they're even allowed to land one that they love (if they work hard enough and search long enough to find one), but no one is owed employment they enjoy for the salary they wish to be making. That's the myth. Perpetuated by those who've forgotten how long and how hard they worked to find a job they didn't hate (or were lucky enough to have one gifted to them).

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On the other hand, there are a lot of places out there that don't require that level of effort or stress
And people are welcome to seek out those types of positions if they like. But those jobs and those companies are the aberrations. Not the other way 'round.

Demonizing Amazon for being an average employer is silly.
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Old 10-06-2018, 07:04 AM   #53
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It's not about "like." It's about paying the electric bill and putting food on the table. No one is entitled to like what they do for a living. They're certainly allowed to seek a job they like better (if they're the type that allows stress to get to them, and haven't discovered how to leave work at work), and they're even allowed to land one that they love (if they work hard enough and search long enough to find one), but no one is owed employment they enjoy for the salary they wish to be making. That's the myth. Perpetuated by those who've forgotten how long and how hard they worked to find a job they didn't hate (or were lucky enough to have one gifted to them).


And people are welcome to seek out those types of positions if they like. But those jobs and those companies are the aberrations. Not the other way 'round.

Demonizing Amazon for being an average employer is silly.
All I can say is that it is my experience that lower stress jobs and companies that treat employees decently are the rule rather than the exception. The only companies that I've run across that acts like Amazon is said to act are consulting firms with their dog eat dog, up or out approach. While in high school and college, I worked a lot of minimum wage jobs - fast food, gas stations attendant (back in the days when we checked the oil and washed the windshield in addition to pumping gas), moving furniture and painting rooms. Heck, I even delivered papers when I was 11, worked as a tutor in high school and worked in a children's library. I was never ever treated as described.

If Amazon is the norm, then they wouldn't have to pay above market rates to hire people and retain employees. Acting poorly has it's costs.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:12 AM   #54
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If Amazon is the norm, then they wouldn't have to pay above market rates to hire people and retain employees. Acting poorly has it's costs.
You jump to conclusions there. If you let your workers dictate how hard they think they should work for the money, then you are screwed. Have you seen the average fresh out of high school kid's work attitude? Some appear to believe that they earn money just for showing up. If you fail as an employee to understand that the employer expects you to stay busy at all times, then you will get treated poorly.

Or in other words: If you get paid more than average, then you are expected to work more and or better than average. No Amazon is not the norm, they strive to have higher expectations than the norm.
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Old 10-06-2018, 06:48 PM   #55
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You jump to conclusions there. If you let your workers dictate how hard they think they should work for the money, then you are screwed. Have you seen the average fresh out of high school kid's work attitude? Some appear to believe that they earn money just for showing up. If you fail as an employee to understand that the employer expects you to stay busy at all times, then you will get treated poorly.

Or in other words: If you get paid more than average, then you are expected to work more and or better than average. No Amazon is not the norm, they strive to have higher expectations than the norm.
No, I'm reacting to the data that I have. The data that I have report that Amazon is not a good place to work. Based on what the reports say, it's far beyond some kids right out of school, not knowing that you are expected to put in a full day's work for a full day's wage. Once again, most of these type of jobs compete for the same group of workers. If the issue is the workers, one would see the same sort of reports about all the companies in the job category. I don't see that. The baggers at my local Publix seem quite happy and cheerful and quite a few look to be high school age. There doesn't seem to be a lot of turnover at that particular store either, which is a pretty good rule of measure for how happy people are working there.

Are there a lot of kids just out of school who don't know what's expected on a job? Sure, quite a lot. That's why so many companies look for people who have 1 year experience. Of course, the bottom rung of workers isn't just made of kids right out of high school. It's made up of a wide range of people. Some people are on the low end of the bell curve and unable to do higher skill jobs, some are people looking for seasonal part time jobs or second jobs (once worked with a lady who had a second job as a waitress in a Chinese restaurant, she was from Thailand. I knew this because I ate there once and she asked me not to tell our boss [I didn't, of course]), some are people just looking to get back in the work force for some reason.
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:18 AM   #56
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Once again, most of these type of jobs compete for the same group of workers. If the issue is the workers, one would see the same sort of reports about all the companies in the job category.
Not exactly the same workers, only those that don't mind working hard. What I tried to say in last post is that Amazon expects more from their workers, and in exchange compensates them better. If you are used to more relaxed jobs, then Amazon will feel like hell on earth.
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:04 AM   #57
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Not exactly the same workers, only those that don't mind working hard. What I tried to say in last post is that Amazon expects more from their workers, and in exchange compensates them better. If you are used to more relaxed jobs, then Amazon will feel like hell on earth.
I thing you are putting the effect before the cause. Amazon expects more from it's workers and thus is forced to compensate them better. If there is one thing that one can never accuse Amazon of it's paying one penny more than they absolutely have to. Even Bezos preaches that.
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Old 10-07-2018, 02:38 PM   #58
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It is ridiculous to be paid a bonus just to show up for work! That's what you get paid to do.

Now take that extra 15.00 and open a mutual fund account and reinvest it that way and watch it grow.

If you don't have the smarts to put money away for a rainy day, that's on you.
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Old 10-07-2018, 03:35 PM   #59
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It is ridiculous to be paid a bonus just to show up for work! That's what you get paid to do.

Now take that extra 15.00 and open a mutual fund account and reinvest it that way and watch it grow.

If you don't have the smarts to put money away for a rainy day, that's on you.
The issue isn't a bonus to just show up to work, the issue is what you have to pay to get workers to work in a high stress situation when there are lower stress jobs available.

I'll take call centers as an example. Some companies measure how long calls last and call center employees are graded on keeping calls under a specified duration so they can handle a certain call volume with a certain staffing level. Other companies are more focused on customer satisfaction. The first is a high stress situation. The second isn't.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:01 PM   #60
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