Advancing Amazon's Sales Model: Print & e-book Combo Purchase) - Page 2

applewine · 12-10-2010, 07:19 PM

If you were offered a free printed copy as a backup when you buy an e-book almost anyone woul take it.

applewine · 12-11-2010, 12:03 AM

Ok if the problem is not amazon, if all you guys say is true, then I thought of something that totally negates that.

All amazon would have to do is give you credits when you buy both the e-book and the paper book together. That way you don't have to change the price of the book or negotiate anything with the publishers. Really easy. That could be credits toward future purchase or cash back on an amazon credit card, or whatever.

Barty · 12-11-2010, 03:04 AM

There have been analogous instances of this kind of product bundling. Buy a technical book and get a copy of the book in PDF format. Buy a blu ray disc, get a free DVD or a media file that can be played on your computer. Etc.

Right now, the publshers are happy to make money from both books and snooks, so they're not going there yet.

JeremyR · 12-11-2010, 03:30 AM

Yeah, but that was mostly done by the publisher (who owned the rights to the movie or book and so it didn't cost them anything).

That said, Amazon recently did start a thing, you buy a movie or DVD from them, and you can watch it streamed from their video store. Disc + On Demand is what you call it.

But this is basically buying two copies of an item, and having Amazon pay for one of them. I'm not sure that's a viable business model. And also bear in mind that movie/tv companies don't work under the Agency model, so things probably work quite a bit differently.

Amazon might not even be able to do this, since presumably that would be re-sale (if they give you a copy of the e-book they paid for, it's their copy and can't transfer it).

robins777 · 12-11-2010, 05:00 AM

A free or discounted ebook version of a printed book is something I have been saying on various forums in reply to several questions about ebook prices.

Since getting my Kindle in September I haven't bought a single ebook fron a main publisher as the prices are too high for my liking. I have bought quite a few from Indie authors on Amazon and have been more than happy with the price and content. I still buy a lot of paperback as they are always less expensive than the Kindle version (UK) and will continue to do so in the future unless either the prices drop or as mentioned a digital version is included with or available for a discounted price.

This is getting an all the more common practice when buying dvd's/Blu Rays as several I have bought have had a digital copy with them. This has allowed me to put the films on a Android device so I have the movie with me.

applewine · 12-12-2010, 01:40 AM

I could see it eventually where you get a free digital copy of the book when you buy the full price new paperback. It really doesn't make sense to be spending a lot extra for the digital text restricted e-license which they already have to print the book. Its not permanent enough and too restricted to justify anything but a marginal extra cost. I think the benefit will be people reading more books and the industry will get more profit through that factor.

In the case where you just want to read a book once and never reference it again you could just find a book club where you like to read the same books and share a library and split the cost up to six ways. A family could do the same thing, just like a real home library.

neilmarr · 12-12-2010, 05:14 AM

Good to have your new company, Applewine. There is a hitch with this proposal, though. Point-of-sale for Amazon treebooks is the USA and they're available to anyone anywhere. Point-of-sale of an ebook is the location of the computer used for download. This means that geographical restrictions come into play.

Many agents and agents, you see, optimise income and royalty advances by often selling the same title to different publishers in different countries so that an ebook title that might be legally downloadable in, say, the USA cannot be legally downloaded in any other country where another publishing company holds territorial rights.

My own independent house holds international print and digital rights on all our titles and we do not use Agency 5 or DRM, so offering treebook and ebook as a package at Amazon would be just dandy by us. Other publishers, though, are legally restricted by their author/agent agreements as well as in-store pricing anomalies.

Cheers. Neil

applewine · 12-17-2010, 09:58 AM

Ok, so the ebook price is fixed. But, is the printed book price fixed under the same agreement?

You could just take the money off the printed book for the conbo deal. Would that break any of their contracts?

basschick · 12-17-2010, 10:53 AM

these are the same publishers that make you pay separately if you want a second format of your ebook. in fact, if you want 4 formats, the big publishers will make you buy each one without even offering a discount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by applewine

I think the publisher would go along with it. They are going to make more money and don't have to relax the restrictions on their digital license in any way.

As I explained they would not be losing money because nobody is going to buy the book twice under normal pricing. Getting people to pay more for the same book is a good idea.

most of the big publishers seem to be completely irrational. when you have lots of time, go visit the news section of this site. publishers don't grasp e-reading, and they seem to go out of their way to make it difficult, too expensive and annoying whenever possible

Quote:

Originally Posted by applewine

You are telling me the publishers are irrational and will make decisions that make themselves less profit on a sale. I do not know these companies, but I find that hard to believe.

You must realize that selling an e-license for full price is much less than a print copy plus say 2 dollars for an e-license. It would be irrational and self destructive to their bottom line profit to not offer a bundle option with the sales model I mentioned. If the are greedy and want money, they will do what I suggested. If they want less money or ate really as stupid as you claim then maybe they won't, bug I doubt that. I think they just need to be given the idea by the retailer and authors.

OtterBooks · 12-17-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

All amazon would have to do is give you credits when you buy both the e-book and the paper book together. That way you don't have to change the price of the book or negotiate anything with the publishers. Really easy. That could be credits toward future purchase or cash back on an amazon credit card, or whatever.

Then Amazon would have to eat the loss. Unlike some electronic entertainment devices, Amazon actually makes their profit on the Kindle sale itself. Unless that changed recently.

Not sure if it changed, but at one point they were literally paying the publisher more for the ebook than the the sale price (link). Amazon would sell an ebook for $9.99 after paying the publisher $12 for it. So imagine if they included that ebook with the hard copy at a discounted price, and their profit on hard copies is already small as it is. Amazon would be taking it prison-style.

Amazon, as big as they are, was actually barely holding their head above water for many years due to small profit margins. The Kindle changed that (as did the expansion into different retail goods).

It's gonna be up to the publishers, and right now it doesn't look promising. Link: Amazon Goes to Battle with Publishers over Ebook Prices. Publishing is an old, conservative industry. They may change their tune, but it may be a while.

Barty · 12-17-2010, 11:16 AM

Folks here seem to peg the publishers as the bad guy, but I imagine the publishers, especially the smaller ones, feel Amazon is the big bad 800 lb gorilla that's throwing it's weight around. Read this article. It provides a different perspective

http://www.instapaper.com/text?u=htt...icle=104352657

OtterBooks · 12-17-2010, 12:02 PM

The publishing industry is fighting for survival and has been for a couple decades. Demand is dropping; people are reading less and less. This is a 200 year-old industry facing hard times as it is, and they're scared as hell of turning their product into a digital file that can be copied and pirated. I think they would do well to embrace it, but they're heading into new water very, very carefully.

I don't think either Amazon/e-book retailers or the publishing industry is the bad guy. On one side you have companies like Amazon -who barely made profit for years due to slim margins- taking a loss on e-book sales in order to sell Kindles, and on the other you have a struggling publishing industry trying to stay alive. It's like two starving monkeys fighting over a peanut.

Yeah I would love to get an ebook copy along with a hard copy, but I don't feel put out by the current situation. If I really want a hard copy for whatever reason, I just buy that. If I don't feel the need to have it on my bookshelf, I buy the digital version, saving space and often saving money. As consumers we have more book buying options than ever. If I gotta have both, I can easily find a cheap used copy of nearly any book online, and then the industry makes nothing.

emalvick · 12-20-2010, 11:25 AM

I think the problem right now is that all media industries (print, music, video) are in slow motion while the rest of the technology world is moving full stream ahead. The publishing companies (again broadly across media types) have been content with the previous hard-copy industry regardless of how well it was really doing, and they don't want to see change.

Then you have companies like Apple and Amazon who are working towards making a digital industry work, and I do think these companies have tried to work with the publishing companies as much as we hear about them bullying them.

It's a tricky industry that is in its infancy. I think that is why you saw the whole DRM vs. no DRM thing going on in the music business (think ITunes and Amazon), yet Amazon doesn't work without DRM for ebooks.

Most media industries need to rething their strategies and understand that the business models of the past 30+ years are not the business strategies that will work from this point forward.

Independent, small publishers have learned this thus they are actually gaining status. They have never been stuck in the big standard distribution business and have been willing to change as needed. You see sales of small indie books and music increase in the digital world. In fact, the digital world saves them money on manufacturing costs, and they pass the savings on to the consumer.

Unfortunately, for the consumer, it is difficult to see who the winners and losers are. The battles between retailers, publishers, and artists (authors, musicians, actors, etc) is not clear cut. This lack of clarity makes the consumer the loser in most cases, and that probably hurts the whole industry more than anything.

Piracy probably wouldn't be so rampant if the industry didn't make it such an issue. I think the music industry may be starting to figure that out through the models that are developing with no drm, etc. It is still a work in progress, but at least there is progress. We need more of that in the ebook world as well. The businesses need to embrace the digital world not avoid it.

Blog Kindle · 12-20-2010, 11:40 AM

Just curious, how many people who have owned Kindle for a while would actually want this?

Why would you want to pay extra for another stack of paper on your shelf that you are likely never to open?

If anything I'd rather have Amazon include sticker with a book to thick on a meta-bookshelf - I read that book.

Or perhaps they should just make an option to display virtual bookshelf on the website - "books that I've read"

12-11-2010, 03:30 AM	#19
JeremyR Guru Posts: 973 Karma: 2458402 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: St. Louis Device: Kindle Keyboard, Nook HD+	Yeah, but that was mostly done by the publisher (who owned the rights to the movie or book and so it didn't cost them anything). That said, Amazon recently did start a thing, you buy a movie or DVD from them, and you can watch it streamed from their video store. Disc + On Demand is what you call it. But this is basically buying two copies of an item, and having Amazon pay for one of them. I'm not sure that's a viable business model. And also bear in mind that movie/tv companies don't work under the Agency model, so things probably work quite a bit differently. Amazon might not even be able to do this, since presumably that would be re-sale (if they give you a copy of the e-book they paid for, it's their copy and can't transfer it). Last edited by JeremyR; 12-11-2010 at 03:34 AM.

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12-10-2010, 07:19 PM	#16
applewine Enthusiast Posts: 26 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle 3	If you were offered a free printed copy as a backup when you buy an e-book almost anyone woul take it.

12-11-2010, 12:03 AM	#17
applewine Enthusiast Posts: 26 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle 3	Ok if the problem is not amazon, if all you guys say is true, then I thought of something that totally negates that. All amazon would have to do is give you credits when you buy both the e-book and the paper book together. That way you don't have to change the price of the book or negotiate anything with the publishers. Really easy. That could be credits toward future purchase or cash back on an amazon credit card, or whatever.

12-11-2010, 03:04 AM	#18
Barty doofus Posts: 2,517 Karma: 13036221 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kindle Voyage	There have been analogous instances of this kind of product bundling. Buy a technical book and get a copy of the book in PDF format. Buy a blu ray disc, get a free DVD or a media file that can be played on your computer. Etc. Right now, the publshers are happy to make money from both books and snooks, so they're not going there yet.

12-11-2010, 05:00 AM	#20
robins777 Enthusiast Posts: 31 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Wigan UK Device: Kindle 3-- Archos 5 A	A free or discounted ebook version of a printed book is something I have been saying on various forums in reply to several questions about ebook prices. Since getting my Kindle in September I haven't bought a single ebook fron a main publisher as the prices are too high for my liking. I have bought quite a few from Indie authors on Amazon and have been more than happy with the price and content. I still buy a lot of paperback as they are always less expensive than the Kindle version (UK) and will continue to do so in the future unless either the prices drop or as mentioned a digital version is included with or available for a discounted price. This is getting an all the more common practice when buying dvd's/Blu Rays as several I have bought have had a digital copy with them. This has allowed me to put the films on a Android device so I have the movie with me.

12-12-2010, 01:40 AM	#21
applewine Enthusiast Posts: 26 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle 3	I could see it eventually where you get a free digital copy of the book when you buy the full price new paperback. It really doesn't make sense to be spending a lot extra for the digital text restricted e-license which they already have to print the book. Its not permanent enough and too restricted to justify anything but a marginal extra cost. I think the benefit will be people reading more books and the industry will get more profit through that factor. In the case where you just want to read a book once and never reference it again you could just find a book club where you like to read the same books and share a library and split the cost up to six ways. A family could do the same thing, just like a real home library.

12-12-2010, 05:14 AM	#22
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,216 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	Good to have your new company, Applewine. There is a hitch with this proposal, though. Point-of-sale for Amazon treebooks is the USA and they're available to anyone anywhere. Point-of-sale of an ebook is the location of the computer used for download. This means that geographical restrictions come into play. Many agents and agents, you see, optimise income and royalty advances by often selling the same title to different publishers in different countries so that an ebook title that might be legally downloadable in, say, the USA cannot be legally downloaded in any other country where another publishing company holds territorial rights. My own independent house holds international print and digital rights on all our titles and we do not use Agency 5 or DRM, so offering treebook and ebook as a package at Amazon would be just dandy by us. Other publishers, though, are legally restricted by their author/agent agreements as well as in-store pricing anomalies. Cheers. Neil

12-17-2010, 09:58 AM	#23
applewine Enthusiast Posts: 26 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle 3	Ok, so the ebook price is fixed. But, is the printed book price fixed under the same agreement? You could just take the money off the printed book for the conbo deal. Would that break any of their contracts?

12-17-2010, 11:16 AM	#26
Barty doofus Posts: 2,517 Karma: 13036221 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kindle Voyage	Folks here seem to peg the publishers as the bad guy, but I imagine the publishers, especially the smaller ones, feel Amazon is the big bad 800 lb gorilla that's throwing it's weight around. Read this article. It provides a different perspective http://www.instapaper.com/text?u=htt...icle=104352657

12-17-2010, 12:02 PM	#27
OtterBooks Wizard Posts: 1,262 Karma: 2979086 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Kindle 4, iPad Mini/Retina	The publishing industry is fighting for survival and has been for a couple decades. Demand is dropping; people are reading less and less. This is a 200 year-old industry facing hard times as it is, and they're scared as hell of turning their product into a digital file that can be copied and pirated. I think they would do well to embrace it, but they're heading into new water very, very carefully. I don't think either Amazon/e-book retailers or the publishing industry is the bad guy. On one side you have companies like Amazon -who barely made profit for years due to slim margins- taking a loss on e-book sales in order to sell Kindles, and on the other you have a struggling publishing industry trying to stay alive. It's like two starving monkeys fighting over a peanut. Yeah I would love to get an ebook copy along with a hard copy, but I don't feel put out by the current situation. If I really want a hard copy for whatever reason, I just buy that. If I don't feel the need to have it on my bookshelf, I buy the digital version, saving space and often saving money. As consumers we have more book buying options than ever. If I gotta have both, I can easily find a cheap used copy of nearly any book online, and then the industry makes nothing.

12-20-2010, 11:25 AM	#28
emalvick Groupie Posts: 166 Karma: 5358 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Davis, CA Device: Kindle 3	I think the problem right now is that all media industries (print, music, video) are in slow motion while the rest of the technology world is moving full stream ahead. The publishing companies (again broadly across media types) have been content with the previous hard-copy industry regardless of how well it was really doing, and they don't want to see change. Then you have companies like Apple and Amazon who are working towards making a digital industry work, and I do think these companies have tried to work with the publishing companies as much as we hear about them bullying them. It's a tricky industry that is in its infancy. I think that is why you saw the whole DRM vs. no DRM thing going on in the music business (think ITunes and Amazon), yet Amazon doesn't work without DRM for ebooks. Most media industries need to rething their strategies and understand that the business models of the past 30+ years are not the business strategies that will work from this point forward. Independent, small publishers have learned this thus they are actually gaining status. They have never been stuck in the big standard distribution business and have been willing to change as needed. You see sales of small indie books and music increase in the digital world. In fact, the digital world saves them money on manufacturing costs, and they pass the savings on to the consumer. Unfortunately, for the consumer, it is difficult to see who the winners and losers are. The battles between retailers, publishers, and artists (authors, musicians, actors, etc) is not clear cut. This lack of clarity makes the consumer the loser in most cases, and that probably hurts the whole industry more than anything. Piracy probably wouldn't be so rampant if the industry didn't make it such an issue. I think the music industry may be starting to figure that out through the models that are developing with no drm, etc. It is still a work in progress, but at least there is progress. We need more of that in the ebook world as well. The businesses need to embrace the digital world not avoid it.

12-20-2010, 11:40 AM	#29
Blog Kindle Addict Posts: 224 Karma: 25122 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Kindle 1/2/3/4/Touch/DX/Fire\|PRS-600/350\|Nook(color)\|iPad\|iPad2\|EVO 4G	Just curious, how many people who have owned Kindle for a while would actually want this? Why would you want to pay extra for another stack of paper on your shelf that you are likely never to open? If anything I'd rather have Amazon include sticker with a book to thick on a meta-bookshelf - I read that book. Or perhaps they should just make an option to display virtual bookshelf on the website - "books that I've read"