Ebooks high prices - the reasons beyond

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Jeffrey's not talking about begging. He's talking about exercising your right as a consumer to contact the publisher and say, "Hey! I'm a potential customer of yours, and what I want is an e-book version of X at a price that isn't a King's ransom." If enough people do that, with enough books, and back it up by buying them when they are available, publishers will take notice (or not, and perish, and good riddance).

I suspect that would be a waste of time. Any publisher who hasn't figured out by now that they should be selling ebooks is a dinosaur.

This is January 2009. The Kindle came out 13 months ago. Since then there have been quite a few news stories about the ebook sales increasing by a factor of 3 or more. Any publisher who hasn't realized the potential of ebooks is too dumb to learn.

P.S. This is why I have given up on TOR Books.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Steve, Jeff; I apologize for being so cranky. It's just that in any other industry, a triple-digit year-over-year growth rate would be causing so much money and product development/production from companies trying to get in on the "next great thing" that it's hard to accept the "manana" (spanish for tommorrow - I don't know how to put on the tilde) attitude.

What Steve said. And Ralph, I don't disagree really. But you also have to remember that while the percentage of the growth rate is high, it's still at this point multiplying relatively small numbers. We want attention for ebooks, but we're still a pretty tiny piece of the action.

And yet, in the last year, the publishing industry has started to take interest. I think prices will come down, especially as they see that the Baen model really works.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

P.S. This is why I have given up on TOR Books.

Why? It's been reported repeatedly here that Tor is working to get their ebook store up and running. Are you mad because it's taking them longer than they thought?

Maybe that just illustrates the point that it's easier to say, "Put your ebooks up for sale," than it is to put a system in place to do it.

Ereads has been at this for years, and their system still isn't working smoothly. It's not for lack of trying. But it is, in part, because sales have not been high enough to allow them to expand their production capability.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Why? It's been reported repeatedly here that Tor is working to get their ebook store up and running. Are you mad because it's taking them longer than they thought?

Maybe that just illustrates the point that it's easier to say, "Put your ebooks up for sale," than it is to put a system in place to do it.

Ereads has been at this for years, and their system still isn't working smoothly. It's not for lack of trying. But it is, in part, because sales have not been high enough to allow them to expand their production capability.

Yes, actually. Why couldn't TOR have started selling ebooks last year? What about the year before? Or the one before that?

Most of the other publishers I want to buy from were already trying to sell ebooks 2 and 3 years ago. Why is it taking TOR so long to figure out what everyone else seems to know? Why did TOR screw around the last 3 years?

TOR has no system in place to release current ebooks at the same time as paper. They are the one major publisher that has no system, not a good one, not a bad one, but none at all. What makes you think the system will magically appear when the ebooks are on Webscription (Baen's website)? Why couldn't TOR have started creating the system last year, or the year before?


BTW, I'm not asking for cheap or DRM free. I just want to be able to _buy_ the ebooks. I have no confidence that TOR will accomplish that.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Yes, actually. Why couldn't TOR have started selling ebooks last year? What about the year before? Or the one before that?

Most of the other publishers I want to buy from were already trying to sell ebooks 2 and 3 years ago. Why is it taking TOR so long to figure out what everyone else seems to know? Why did TOR screw around the last 3 years?

TOR has no system in place to release current ebooks at the same time as paper. They are the one major publisher that has no system, not a good one, not a bad one, but none at all. What makes you think the system will magically appear when the ebooks are on Webscription (Baen's website)? Why couldn't TOR have started creating the system last year, or the year before?


BTW, I'm not asking for cheap or DRM free. I just want to be able to _buy_ the ebooks. I have no confidence that TOR will accomplish that.

I can't answer why Tor didn't start sooner on ebook sales, but it's clear they're serious about it now. I sat one evening working with the man who is overseeing the effort. I'm fairly certain that one obstacle to be overcome is that Tor is part of MacMillan USA, and their planned ebook store will be part of or coordinated with the MacMillan ebook store. (Or so I was told.) I never said anything about books magically appearing when they're tied into Baen webscription, though that is part of their plan--that Baen will be one of their distributors, or retailers. (And please note that even at Baen, things don't always move as efficiently as one might like.)

Obviously, I wish the Tor ebook project would move faster, because my own book is caught up in the delay. And if it's delayed much longer, I'll be pretty unhappy about it. So do I wish they were pushing harder? Yes. But do I believe they will get it going? Yes.

That said, I'll just note that more than one person at Tor expressed the feeling to me that the Mobileread community is sometimes...well, let's just say, less than constructive in supporting their efforts. (Note--the MR community has been great to me, and I share some of the frustration voiced here--but I'm telling you how MR is seen by some at Tor.)

(Why did I even get into this? If I'm smart, I'll leave this topic alone, because I'm not sure I'm contributing anything constructive to it.)

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by starrigger

I can't answer why Tor didn't start sooner on ebook sales, but it's clear they're serious about it now. I sat one evening working with the man who is overseeing the effort. I'm fairly certain that one obstacle to be overcome is that Tor is part of MacMillan USA, and their planned ebook store will be part of or coordinated with the MacMillan ebook store. (Or so I was told.) I never said anything about books magically appearing when they're tied into Baen webscription, though that is part of their plan--that Baen will be one of their distributors, or retailers. (And please note that even at Baen, things don't always move as efficiently as one might like.)

Obviously, I wish the Tor ebook project would move faster, because my own book is caught up in the delay. And if it's delayed much longer, I'll be pretty unhappy about it. So do I wish they were pushing harder? Yes. But do I believe they will get it going? Yes.

That said, I'll just note that more than one person at Tor expressed the feeling to me that the Mobileread community is sometimes...well, let's just say, less than constructive in supporting their efforts. (Note--the MR community has been great to me, and I share some of the frustration voiced here--but I'm telling you how MR is seen by some at Tor.)

(Why did I even get into this? If I'm smart, I'll leave this topic alone, because I'm not sure I'm contributing anything constructive to it.)

The word magic is my own. I did not mean to imply you said that. I use it becuase I have been told several times that in the not too distant future Tor will sell ebooks. I look at their current abilities, and I see that Tor cannot produce ebooks. This lead me to the conclusion that the new system would appear by magic; there is no indication that Tor is putting it into operation right now.

And as for us being less than constructive in supporting their efforts, well, I have to ask: What efforts? All we can see is Tor mouthing platitudes about the future while continuing to fail in the present.

[BlackVoid]

Originally Posted by xianfox

I'd be startled if the cost difference between paper and digital was more than 5% of the book's total cost to produce at this point in time, even for the large publishing houses.

Thats quite impossible, given that on paper books the retail chains also make money.

[HappyMartin]

Originally Posted by BlackVoid

Thats quite impossible, given that on paper books the retail chains also make money.

The paper costs may only be 5%, and that seems about right, but the cost of p books is mostly distribution and shelf space. Retailers work out the cost per square meter they need to make to stay alive. Any product must pay its way. Where I live furniture retailers need around 80% markup to stay alive. The consequences of this are that niche products are limited and most of the cost of an item occurs at the retail level. Retail is very tricky and risky as we can see with the number of retailers failing at the moment.

Capitalism is not about working out a cost and then placing a reasonable (read small) profit on that. Capitalism is about getting as much money from the market as it will stand. Anyone saying anything else is just quoting capitalist propaganda in my opinion. To try to work out what something should cost based on its production costs is an attempt to apply the principles of a centrally controlled economy to capitalism and is destined to failure and disappointment.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Understand: copy editing and proofreading are not done on computer files. They are done on paper--yes, with red pencil, or sometimes blue pencil, or even black pencil. And those corrections go back to be entered by the typesetter.

So...unless the author enters all the final changes, which is many hours of unpaid work, there really is no clean source file for an ebook. Except the PDF or the typesetter's files, neither of which is a very good source for the ebook.

That's not really what I'm talking about - I'll happily admit to having no experience of the publishing industry. What I'm really trying to comment on is DaleDe's assertion that they have several different electronic versions floating around, and no idea which is which.

I.e. I'm not saying anything about whether or not they have an electronic version that is suitable source for an ebook, simply that if they really don't have any control over the digital information they do have then that is pretty poor for a modern business (which is something of which I do have experience).

If what they do have is not suitable source then that's a different problem, and I can understand why that might take a while to change, but even that is hardly rocket science.

My accoutancy comment was simply meant to mean that the accountancy department had better know which version of the accounts is the final one, or they're in deep trouble with the authorities!

/JB

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by starrigger

(Why did I even get into this? If I'm smart, I'll leave this topic alone, because I'm not sure I'm contributing anything constructive to it.)

Not so: You contribute insider's knowledge, something most of us do not have. I, for one, have found the information provided by you to be insightful and valuable.

The only problem is that all of this talk does nothing to actually make things happen... we're all blowing smoke. In that respect, nothing any of us is saying here makes any difference, if the publishers aren't listening, nor care to act in response to our cries for help (or, in this case, cheap books).

On the other hand... independents (like myself) get useful information from this site, including word of what's going on "inside the castle" of publishing from people like yourself, which helps to guide our efforts to be successful on our own. In my case, it has been an immense help.

So don't feel like you're not contributing. Your knowledge, combined with ours, is what makes this site as great as it is. Keep it up, buddy.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by starrigger

I can't answer why Tor didn't start sooner on ebook sales, but it's clear they're serious about it now. I sat one evening working with the man who is overseeing the effort. I'm fairly certain that one obstacle to be overcome is that Tor is part of MacMillan USA, and their planned ebook store will be part of or coordinated with the MacMillan ebook store. (Or so I was told.) I never said anything about books magically appearing when they're tied into Baen webscription, though that is part of their plan--that Baen will be one of their distributors, or retailers. (And please note that even at Baen, things don't always move as efficiently as one might like.)

Obviously, I wish the Tor ebook project would move faster, because my own book is caught up in the delay. And if it's delayed much longer, I'll be pretty unhappy about it. So do I wish they were pushing harder? Yes. But do I believe they will get it going? Yes.

That said, I'll just note that more than one person at Tor expressed the feeling to me that the Mobileread community is sometimes...well, let's just say, less than constructive in supporting their efforts. (Note--the MR community has been great to me, and I share some of the frustration voiced here--but I'm telling you how MR is seen by some at Tor.)

(Why did I even get into this? If I'm smart, I'll leave this topic alone, because I'm not sure I'm contributing anything constructive to it.)

Jeff, what is particularly bothersome about the situtation is that the publishing industry has been willing for decades to provide big advances for books not yet written, and consider it normal business, but won't write themselves a big advance to put in the infrastructure to handle their business for the next century. Managements are paid to plan 5 to 20 years in advance, but publishers can't seem to plan 5 to 20 minutes in advance...And to me, small market size is no excuse. In a market growing triple digits, even a tiny market become very big, very fast. Ask any high-tech company...

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by starrigger

That said, I'll just note that more than one person at Tor expressed the feeling to me that the Mobileread community is sometimes...well, let's just say, less than constructive in supporting their efforts. (Note--the MR community has been great to me, and I share some of the frustration voiced here--but I'm telling you how MR is seen by some at Tor.)

There is some ambiguity in your pronoun choice. It occurred to me this morning that "supporting their efforts" might refer to MobileRead, not Tor. If so, then that statement references one incident, and whoever told you that must have forgotten how badly Tor responded to that incident.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Okay, I almost missed the "less than constructive" thing. Anyone like to clarify that for the rest of us? Are we talking about members who like to brag about their DRM-cracking skills? Members who attack publishers over issues like DRM or high prices, or threaten to undermine their efforts through file sharing, piracy, etc?

While I realize that those things have certainly come up in the past, at the same time any business has to recognize a sign of unhappy and frustrated customers, and should be able to legitimately address that frustration, either with actions, or with honest information about their limitations that a customer can understand.

(I guess I shouldn't speculate, though, without the details...)

[Nate the great]

Steve, I sent you a pm.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Got it. What a dustup! Personally, I agree that Tor could have done a better job, PR-wise, in dealing with the misunderstanding... as a business, it is their responsibility to placate customers, or to blow them off, depending on whether or not they want their business in the future. Looks like some of Tor's people decided they'd rather blow them off. Distressing.

For the record, I, too, assumed that Tor was using Tor.com to signal an imminent release of an extensive e-book catalog of their titles, and was disappointed when no such catalog appeared after the giveaway period. If that makes me gullible, so be it.

But after a promotion like that, I still expect Tor e-books from them.