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Old 11-18-2021, 01:03 AM   #1
zebideedoodah
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So many problems... For starters, I can't read AZW3 on Android app or on Kindle Fire

Hi

First time posting on here - if there's a better forum for this, please point me towards it.

I'm trying to create a Kindle file for an ebook of short stories. I have a lot of experince with InDesign, so I built a print version as a Book file in CS6, then produced an epub from that. It looked good, so I the converted that to mobi in Calibre. I then mailed the file to my Kindle address for both the Kindle itself and the phone app.

However, the mobi lost all its spacing, most noticeable the space between the header and the text, and the paragraph spacing. All spacing was originally governed with paragraph tags in InDesign, so I tried various options (separate text frames for header, then producing chapter headers as images and using those as separators) - all guesswork really, but with little result.

I wanted the header to appear about a third of the way down a new page, then a sizeable space (say = 8 lines of text) before the body text begins. I'd also added a drop cap of three lines in bold. That also disappeared in the mobi, although it retained the bold. The paragraph spacing has completely disappeared.

I also tried producing the file as an AZW3, but can't get my Kindle Fire HD (admittedly a few years old) or my Kindle app for Android (latest version) to read it. It won't even display in either library. It does display in Calibre's reader, though, and looks great. Is there a DRM switch I have to deal with when creating the AZW file? I had a feeling there was, but I couldn't find it referenced in Calibre.

I also have the problem of extra pages at the beginning of the book, duplicating the cover and the title page (which I created as an image for convenience sake). I think I can deal with those, though - both the cover and the title page are images created in Photoshop and placed in the InDesign file. I'm guessing the extra pages are probably caused by the 'page breaks before image' setting. At the moment I'm concentrating on the text, although it's driving me slightly loopy. I feel like I'm missing something really obvious, but can't for the life of me see what it is.

I've avoided mentioning CSS so far, simply because as much as I have tried to get to grips with it (and understand it in principle), I just don't understand it when I read it. I also tried to edit the ebook in Sigil but I can't even get it to display. I get error messages referring to .ttf fonts and though I read up on woff fonts, and converted some as a trial, I can't get them to install in the fonts folder on my PC.

All the while the epub file looks great and is exactly what I wanted. It hasn't seemed to need a .css file so far - should I have one just for mobi? I am really beginning to feel like an idiot.

Whatever thoughts you have on this, disparaging as they might be, will be very welcome. I want this to be on Amazon before the end of this month, but I really feel like I've hit a brick wall.

Thanks for reading.
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Old 11-18-2021, 08:36 AM   #2
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Indesign is rubbish for ebooks.
Use MSWord or LO Writer (edit in odt) and import docx to Calibre (free). Convert to epub2, which is what Amazon KDP uses.

Use embedded & subset fonts. TTF is fine. Occasionally the book check in Calibre editor finds an issue with a font filename and can automatically fix that.

By default newer Kindles don't use any embedded fonts (Azw3/KF8/KFX) and older Kindles ONLY ever use the supplied fonts (mobi/KF7).

Or use Sigil if automatic conversion doesn't give what you want. The Word/Writer paragraph styles map 1:1 to clean CSS and the HTML is clean when using docx to epub in Calibre.

If desired make an AZW3 from the epub for a Kindle, but that can't be uploaded to Amazon.

Forget Kindle Apps for testing. The Fire is really an Android Tablet, not a Kindle and uses something similar to the Kindle for Android. If in doubt I test buy my ebook in mobi and in azw3 by suitable Kindles and "Download to PC for USB transfer" as a Whispernet purchase gives the KFX.

I only "sideload" to physical real eink Kindles. I use epub apps like Aldiko Basic and Lithium to test on Android from 4.3" to 10" screens.

I do have the Kindle Android app too. As well Kobo, Google PlayBooks and Belinda Borrowbox.

Last edited by Quoth; 11-18-2021 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 11-18-2021, 09:50 AM   #3
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Working with an InDesign epub is unpleasant even when you ARE comfortable with CSS. Personally I think your best options are to either push back your release date in order to give yourself more time to get to know the format; or work to a very barebones target stylistically, or hire it out. In reading your post, there are a number of things that stand out as not sounding ~12 days out from a satisfactory ebook. Because there is some foundational ebook stuff (like the role of CSS and the way spacing works) that you’ll need to get your head around first.

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Old 11-18-2021, 12:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebideedoodah View Post
Hi

First time posting on here - if there's a better forum for this, please point me towards it.

I'm trying to create a Kindle file for an ebook of short stories. I have a lot of experince with InDesign, so I built a print version as a Book file in CS6, then produced an epub from that. It looked good, so I the converted that to mobi in Calibre. I then mailed the file to my Kindle address for both the Kindle itself and the phone app.
(Didn't you post about this on the KDP forums? Didn't I answer you about this before?)

Well, you've screwed yourself 6 ways from Sunday in your process. Firstly, "mobi" from Calibre is the old KF7 format, not KF8 and certainly not KFX/Enhanced Typesetting, so it will ignore most CSS. That's the first thing.

Secondly, mailing an ebook to your devices can also be problematic and if you mean an iPhone, you really screwed yourself, because a KF7 MOBI on an iPhone will look hideous. There's a different format for that (AZK) which you make using Kindle Previewer 3 and a rather tortured method for getting it into the Kindle app on the iOS device. (Google for it, you need images.)

Quote:
However, the mobi lost all its spacing, most noticeable the space between the header and the text, and the paragraph spacing. All spacing was originally governed with paragraph tags in InDesign, so I tried various options (separate text frames for header, then producing chapter headers as images and using those as separators) - all guesswork really, but with little result.
You're working in the wrong generation of the format (MOBI from Calibre). Honestly, dude(tte) don't use Calibre for this. Calibre has many lovely qualities and this isn't one of them.
Quote:
I wanted the header to appear about a third of the way down a new page, then a sizeable space (say = 8 lines of text) before the body text begins. I'd also added a drop cap of three lines in bold. That also disappeared in the mobi, although it retained the bold. The paragraph spacing has completely disappeared.
Firstly, the new chapter has to be in its own HTML file. If you get one big long-ass HTML file, you can't space from the "top of the page" because the top of the page is the beginning of the HTML file. If you create it in its own HTML file (each chapter), you can use a top-margin: setting with ems for spacing. But more on that later.

Quote:
I also tried producing the file as an AZW3, but can't get my Kindle Fire HD (admittedly a few years old) or my Kindle app for Android (latest version) to read it. It won't even display in either library. It does display in Calibre's reader, though, and looks great. Is there a DRM switch I have to deal with when creating the AZW file? I had a feeling there was, but I couldn't find it referenced in Calibre.
AFAIK, you can't really use the AZW3 file easily. I believe that the Calibre community has some drag-this do that way of getting it onto Kindles, but even if it worked, so what? You can't upload it at KDP any-damned-way. So, stop screwing around with it.

You're somewhat on the right track--trying to see the more-advanced "dual" mobi version, but Calibre's AZW3 can't get there from here for you.

Quote:
I also have the problem of extra pages at the beginning of the book, duplicating the cover and the title page (which I created as an image for convenience sake). I think I can deal with those, though - both the cover and the title page are images created in Photoshop and placed in the InDesign file. I'm guessing the extra pages are probably caused by the 'page breaks before image' setting. At the moment I'm concentrating on the text, although it's driving me slightly loopy. I feel like I'm missing something really obvious, but can't for the life of me see what it is.
No, it's because you put the cover in the ePUB file as a cover.html file (or whatever name) and that's not the right way to create a cover for a Kindle file. IF you get to the point with an ePUB where it's ready, other than that, you would remove the cover.html file, LEAVE the image named cover.jpg and meta-data'ed as the cover and then when it's uploaded at KDP, it will automatically build correctly. I'm not really sure what is happening with your title page or why it's duping?

Quote:
I've avoided mentioning CSS so far, simply because as much as I have tried to get to grips with it (and understand it in principle), I just don't understand it when I read it. I also tried to edit the ebook in Sigil but I can't even get it to display. I get error messages referring to .ttf fonts and though I read up on woff fonts, and converted some as a trial, I can't get them to install in the fonts folder on my PC.
If you want fonts to display, inside an eBook, you MUST embed the fonts inside the ePUB. If you have them actively installed on YOUR computer, they'll work when you view the ePUB (on your computer) but that's worthless elsewhere.

You're going to need more on fonts than I can give you here. In short, you will have font declarations (typically at the top of the file) that will either need matching font files placed in the ePUB, or, if you replace them (let's say AGaramond Pro, replaced with a generic Garamond), you'll have to redefine the fonts in the declarations. That takes a bit of knowledge and you're NOT using WOFFS. Don't go to WOFFS, that's the wrong direction.

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All the while the epub file looks great and is exactly what I wanted. It hasn't seemed to need a .css file so far - should I have one just for mobi? I am really beginning to feel like an idiot.
If the ePUB file doesn't have/need a CSS file, then something is horribly wrong, no offense. All eBooks, of all kinds, other than the "Hello World" version of an eBook, require CSS. Are you saying that your ePUB file has NO CSS in it? Is this a fixed-layout ePUB, maybe?

CSS is the display lifeblood of eBooks. it's the display lifeblood of Word files, word processing files AND, it's the lifeblood of INDD. All that stuff--paragraph styles, text styles, overrides, character styles--those ARE, in effect, CSS. If you understand paragraph styles, etc. in INDD, you effectively understand CSS.

Question--you DO use religious styles throughout your INDD file, right? You have defined paragraph styles for everything? Heading types, epigrams, (if used, obviously), first-paragraph styles, body styles, etc?

Quote:
Whatever thoughts you have on this, disparaging as they might be, will be very welcome. I want this to be on Amazon before the end of this month, but I really feel like I've hit a brick wall.

Thanks for reading.
I'm not disparaging you, but you have undertaken a lot. Learning how to make an ebook from a typical INDD print file isn't exactly what I'd recommend as a beginning point for those wanting to learn eBook-making.

If you take your ePUB file and drop it on Kindle Previewer 3, what is the result? (IMPORTANT NOTE: if the ePUB file is fixed-layout, don't do this.)
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:27 PM   #5
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I just wanted to say a huge thanks to all those who took the time to reply to my post. I was too busy for a while to even look at what I'd been trying to do - but once I did, what you all said made lots of sense. And what a difference it made!

I decided to practice by using an ebook of A Christmas Carol - mainly because it also contained images and would give me lots to practice on. I highlighted all the text from a copy I found on Project Gutenberg and pasted it into both Word and InDesign. Then I downloaded all the images, so I could place them manually.

I then used InDesign to create a fully laid-out pdf (which I would need anyway), then saved that as a html file. I also created an html file from one single Word document, but doing it through ID seems to suit me better, since the paragraph tags convert to CSS. I opened that document in Calibre and split it into the original chapter sections, then ran through and checked for page breaks, dropped italics etc (there always seems to be something, but that's OK - good practice for me).

I seem to have two CSS files, but I just merge them. Is that a problem? Doesn't seem to be.

One issue I've found so far is that Calibre seems to create it's own definitions for character styles, quite apart from those defined through InDesign. Any reason for that? Do I need to merge or delete one or the other?

Another is this error message when I run a check on the file, although it seems to have no effect on the final output:

Unknown property 'panose-1'.****[stylesheet.css]

What should I do about it?

Another issue I have is governing space between headings. There doesn't really seem to be any, although I've increased it by increasing the line-height. It doesn't seem like a perfect solution, though, and only works if the heading is across one line.

The last issue I have is in using images. They place extremely well, but most appear as miniatures between paragraphs. Once clicked on, they enlarge and can be viewed properly, but I wanted to have each of them as full page images, with a page-break before and after. In the CSS, they each have a height of auto and a width of varying percentages. What am I aiming for?

Once again, a huge thanks for your help - your responses were like a masterclass in miniature and I'm now so much more comfortable with what I'm trying to do. I hope you can spare me a few minutes more to point me in the right direction again. If you can, it will be much appreciated.

Thanks!
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Old 12-07-2021, 05:17 AM   #6
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Big thanks for your response - it was a huge help and I really appreciate it. I have a couple more questions - if you could spare me five minutes, I'd appreciate it even more. I've put a slightly longer response in the thread.
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Old 12-07-2021, 09:00 AM   #7
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Word or LO Writer can produce perfect ebooks with 1:1 mapping of paragraph styles and headings to the CSS & HTML. No editing required. Docx to Calibre.

Learn to use styles for all paragraphs / headings / tables / images.

Don't edit docx in Writer, only odt and do an additional Save As in docx. Indesign is for complex paper publications.

Writer is now better than Word if you are not having to collaborate on a document being edited by a Word user, though it reads doc & docx, but like using a DIFFERENT version of MS Word to someone else, you need to fix up all the styles, links, headings depending which version of doc or docx you imported.
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Old 12-07-2021, 09:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
Word or LO Writer can produce perfect ebooks with 1:1 mapping of paragraph styles and headings to the CSS & HTML. No editing required. Docx to Calibre.

Learn to use styles for all paragraphs / headings / tables / images.

Don't edit docx in Writer, only odt and do an additional Save As in docx. Indesign is for complex paper publications.

Writer is now better than Word if you are not having to collaborate on a document being edited by a Word user, though it reads doc & docx, but like using a DIFFERENT version of MS Word to someone else, you need to fix up all the styles, links, headings depending which version of doc or docx you imported.
I know you're an LO fan, but what makes you say it's "better than" Word?

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Old 12-07-2021, 12:58 PM   #9
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I know you're an LO fan, but what makes you say it's "better than" Word?

Hitch
Only for certain tasks. And I my most recent MS Word is 2007 (with Classic Menu plugin to avoid Ribbon).
I find getting up navigation & style browser windows easier. Also doesn't have the same bugs (the last line before page break in Word if you don't add extra return & delete it).

I've used Wordstar, NewWord, Wordperfect, MS Word for DOS, and Word for Windows from maybe 1992 to 2014. I used to sell MS Office etc. I'd used Star/Sun Office, Open Office and Libre office on and off before 100% switch to about LO Writer 5.2. I'm on 6.x now.

I used to teach Wordprocessing, DTP, Windows Admin, MS Office use etc.

Certainly if you need to regularly exchange wp files you need to use the same version (or compatible enough) of MS Office. Reading MS Office files or writing them with LibreOffice is not just import/export, but conversion.

Then because I'd 100% changed to LO I was able to 100% migrate to Linux rather than the dual boot I'd had with various NT and Linux since about 1998 (NT 4.0 & Red Hat then, later XP and Ubuntu, last was Win7 & Linux Mint)

I've looked at other writing packages over the years.

If I was still working in Tech and doing project proposals, manuals etc and in a team, I'd have to use Word.

But now I write for me. I only print to ebook. My wife uses most of the colour duplex laser consumables.

Also I only write or edit novels or reformat web pages.

I do have a legal Word 2007 on WINE and Word XP on one VM (clone of my 2002 laptop) and Word 2003 on a different VM. Don't need them. They now seem awkward.

I've used the horrid Google Docs and Online MS Office.

Last edited by Quoth; 12-07-2021 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 12-07-2021, 07:56 PM   #10
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God, Wordstar - that takes me back. I had a real fondness for that program, despite all its clunky modi operandi. Then WordPerfect came along and it just faded into the background. Pity.
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Old 12-12-2021, 04:56 PM   #11
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I'd used Star/Sun Office, Open Office and Libre office on and off before 100% switch to about LO Writer 5.2. I'm on 6.x now.
Why not upgrade to the latest LibreOffice 7.2?

There's been thousands of bugfixes and enhancements since 6... along with several major features:

It's getting faster and better all the time.

(LibreOffice 6.4 was in January 2020... You're missing out on 2+ years of betterness!)

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 12-12-2021 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 12-13-2021, 05:42 AM   #12
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What I have works.
I also am not on the newest Linux Mint either.
Some things like Signal, Calibre, Viber, Brother drivers etc I install from the source. Other things I use the distro packages, though I avoid flatpack versions, such as Libre Office, GIMP, Filezilla, WINE, KATE.

I don't always have the latest Calibre either, unless there is a bug fix I need.

I stayed on Office XP (ten years) and Windows XP (nearly 15 years), Paint Shop Pro 7, etc with only doing patches etc.
I used WFWG 3.11 till I upgraded to NT 4.0, the win 95 was a "game console" for one of the kids.
I was still using CP/M and Wordstar clone up till 1991 as well as a PC. But I'm not as bad as G.R.R. Martin. I think Jerry Pournell (Chaos Manor and co-wrote with Niven) used old stuff?

I used same laptop from 2002 to 2016 (XP + Linux dual boot). Replacement had Win7 + Linux, but I removed the Win7 in 2017.

Stopped doing programming in about 2014.

Quote:
7.0 introduced Navigator improvements (sidebar TOC based on Headings).
7.1 introduced Outline Folding + Style Inspector
7.2 introduced gutter support + Index fixes
7.3, coming out in a few months, is going to have tons of Track Changes + Compare Documents fixes
Don't need Navigator improvements. I have separate windows.
I had "outline" folding in 1984 in an editor. I prefer the window with list of headings to navigate (which can hide sub headings).
I don't have any gutter issues or broken/buggy indexes.
I don't collaborate any more. How I hated that on Google Docs & MS Word. Track Changes & Compare is of no value now to me (it was on big programming projects I managed).

Last edited by Quoth; 12-13-2021 at 05:48 AM.
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