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Old 04-12-2024, 09:31 AM   #31
leebase
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Originally Posted by rcentros View Post
I will pass on color eInk also, but I see no need to be "sympathetic" to those who want or need color eReaders..
Really? You don't have sympathy for those who, up until now, couldn't avail themselves of color reading because tablets hurt their eyes?

And, no sympathy that this MANY YEARS LATE technology that has finally arrived, is such a poor color experience?
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Old 04-12-2024, 09:55 AM   #32
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I don't know wether the guy of the "Good Ereader website" is a good fortune teller or not, he foresees new kindle colored display next year.
I don't think Bezos would like to be left behind
Certainly won't be rushing out to buy one, but may well consider it for my next e-reader, if Jeff brings one out. Would be nice to see book covers etc. in their full-ish glory, not to mention menus etc. maybe being easier to navigate.

I'm one of the 'sympathy' cases, tablet reading is a big no-no for me, indoors or out, though handy for trips...
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Old 04-12-2024, 02:26 PM   #33
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I'm certainly intrigued by a color reader. I'd love to have one but I really don't think I would make use of it. Novels generally are not in color anyway and the only comics I would want to read on a screen the size of most e-readers would be Japanese manga which are usually also in black and white. So there's really not much point for me.
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Old 04-12-2024, 02:27 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
Really? You don't have sympathy for those who, up until now, couldn't avail themselves of color reading because tablets hurt their eyes?

And, no sympathy that this MANY YEARS LATE technology that has finally arrived, is such a poor color experience?
I can't imagine what you are writing about.
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Old 04-12-2024, 05:49 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Quoth View Post
I can't imagine what you are writing about.
For some eInk is the only viable technology for reading. They can't read on a phone or a tablet because it hurts their eyes.

There was a time when many here argued that the "can't read on a tablet" was the actual norm. Tablets were new and eInk already established. Surely, eInk would remain top dog because "reading on a tablet was harmful to people's eyes".

It was nonsense, but it had quite the fan base here.

Then there was the "color eInk is here!" phase. Time and again it was debated and those who rightly pointed out "there's no market for his tech" were met with scorn.

But now - after all these years...a true "color eInk has arrived". So long that, apparently, no one seems to remember the earlier discussions.

So now, we have this really mediocre color experience available for those who can't read on a tablet or who just prefer eInk.

Let's get out the popcorn and see hot "like hot cakes" these long demanded devices fare in the market.

If the premium over black and white eInk is minimal enough, then they will replace b&w eInk .

Tablets and smart phones will continue to be the vastly dominant platform for reading because, after all, very few people actually have a problem reading on them.

Last edited by leebase; 04-12-2024 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 04-13-2024, 12:38 AM   #36
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Not all eink fans want or need color eink, so there's no need to be patronizing to all eink users. Many of us are perfectly content to read ordinary books on b&w eink devices and anything requiring color on tablets/computers. There's no sharp division between eink users and non-users, like you seem to think there is - most of the first category also read on other devices when the need arises. Those who can read ONLY on eink and on nothing else, are a very small niche.

Inability to read on LCD is not the general reason people are eager to buy color eink - it's new tech and most are interested because of that, not because they're somehow disabled. So no, the majority of eink users don't need your sympathies at all.
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Old 04-13-2024, 05:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leebase View Post
Tablets and smart phones will continue to be the vastly dominant platform for reading because, after all, very few people actually have a problem reading on them.
I love reading outside in the garden in the sun and I have problems with this stuff.
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Old 04-13-2024, 05:57 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
Somebody posted this video in the other thread that demonstrates the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qIHCUWAgh4
Can you please embed the video instead of just posting a link that opens another tab? You go advanced and click the YouTube button. Then you put in the bit of the YT URL that's after the v=.
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Old 04-13-2024, 06:39 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
For some eInk is the only viable technology for reading. They can't read on a phone or a tablet because it hurts their eyes.
Only if the brightness is set too high, or they have bright reflections. Nothing else.
The only people that can't read on a properly adjusted LCD held so there are no bright reflections can't read on eink either, or paper. Also people with Macular degeneration can't easily use eink, they need a high contrast 10″ or larger bright tablet and as it gets worse a bright 20″ to 60″ screen.

Some people have convinced themselves they can only read on eink, perhaps due to using too bright screens or shiny screens with bright reflections. There is no medical condition that makes eink better than a suitable LCD screen. It can be more pleasant to read on if the LCD is too shiny or too bright. Also many LCDs have poor viewing angle and the eink is more like paper on view angle and tends to have the anti-glare/anti-reflective more expensive surface treatment rare on LCD and OLED and CRT and Plasma screens (that is over 50 years old).

Also advantages of eink with the front light off (if it's bright, it's the same LED light as an LCD backlight) is the colour temperature of the white is matching the ambient light.

Phones and Tablets with bigger screens also used to have very poor battery life. They can now exceed eink when used for audiobooks and be long enough for reading. The eink cpu partially sleeps till you turn a page giving very good charge run time unless you are listening to audio, searching and page flicking continuously.

Advantages of decent mono eink (without front light) over cheap OLED/LCD
  • Long charge intervals (Phones can be as good or better on pure audio books)
  • Superb viewing angles (OLED and LCD can be nearly as good)
  • 300dpi (very crisp) as cheap LCD are less than 150dpi (decent ones can be as sharp), Old,cheap or colour eink is 150 dpi (large colour eink even less than 120 dpi)
  • Colour temperature matches ambient
  • No distractions on dedicated ereaders
  • Better support for metadata (partially Amazon, especially Kobo) on dedicated readers
  • Special anti-reflection surface finish (Nothing to do with eink and on some LCD/OLED), shiny is cheap.

Major disadvantages of eink
  • Frame rate about 20x slower than OLED/LCD
  • Pixel change response time about 50x slower than OLED/LCD
  • Not yet high enough resolution for colour (450dpi+ mono needed)
  • Only black, white and about 14 grey levels vs 250 to 1000 levels, so anti-aliasing, photos and colour filter performance is poor.
  • Essentially only one supplier vs many
  • Very mature technology with tiny incremental improvements.
  • Mechanical moving parts, but not at speed of MEMS based DLP as balls in a liquid are slow
  • Animation, fast page turns and attempts at video is higher power consumption than QLED type LCD!
  • AECP (CYM) is different 10x slower technology that may never suit ereaders. In contrast Quantum Dots on OLED and LCD is allowing more resolution, better colour, x6 brightness on LCD for full sunlight (or 1/6th power) and without slowing the display. At least three panel sources and already on TVs.

Yes, reading a novel is more pleasant on eink, but correctly adjusted and positioned LCD/OLED of decent quality (sufficient resolution, non-reflective screen, IPS or later for viewing angle etc) won't hurt or tire your eyes.

Last edited by Quoth; 04-13-2024 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 04-13-2024, 10:46 AM   #40
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I love reading outside in the garden in the sun and I have problems with this stuff.
E-ink is also great for reading at the beach on a sunny day. My phone does not work nearly as well in that environment.
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Old 04-13-2024, 09:49 PM   #41
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When I read right before bed in a dark room, I get far less complaints about my Clara than I do my tablet.
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Old 04-15-2024, 03:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
Really? You don't have sympathy for those who, up until now, couldn't avail themselves of color reading because tablets hurt their eyes?

And, no sympathy that this MANY YEARS LATE technology that has finally arrived, is such a poor color experience?
No. I don't think they're looking for sympathy. And I don't think you really feel sympathetic.

I know, for certain, that I have zero desire to read on an LCD tablet.

Choice is good. You choose tablets, others don't. Simple concept.
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Old 04-15-2024, 04:05 AM   #43
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Tablets and smart phones will continue to be the vastly dominant platform for reading because, after all, very few people actually have a problem reading on them.
There's more than just the LCD vs E-Ink issue. There's also the weight, expense, the lack of battery life and lack of distractions when reading on an eReader.

You like your LCD tablet. Why can't other people like color E-Ink readers? It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I don't understand the bitterness.

And I think most people already understand that E-Ink color is inferior to tablet LCD color. But is good enough for those who like E-Ink? Apparently there is a market for them, or Kobo/Tolino wouldn't be entering into it.
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Old 04-15-2024, 07:27 AM   #44
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I don't understand the bitterness.

And I think most people already understand that E-Ink color is inferior to tablet LCD color. But is good enough for those who like E-Ink? Apparently there is a market for them, or Kobo/Tolino wouldn't be entering into it.
Agreed. As long as there is choice (mono eink and colour eink, LCD, OLED etc) there is no problem as long as products are honestly advertised in terms of specification and photos.

Certainly there is value to colour eink, but it should be honestly marketed and the price premium till now has been crazy as it's only a coloured pattern on eisting mono eink screens and little more than some extra software, though a specific controller should be used. Even mono eink seems massively overpriced based on cost of replacement panels, though the panels either due to monopoly or technology are about x3 the price of LCD panels. The only reason we don't still see mono LCD graphics panels (we used to) is that there is zero market as the colour ones (which are mono with either a colour filter or quantum dots) has as much resolution, speed, shades, contrast, brightness etc as anyone wants if you pay for quality (which is still a fraction of mono eink).

The battery life issue is narrowing, especially with Colour ink that does note taking, faster refresh, audio books and wifi, but only compared to better tablets. Some phones beat mono eink for battery life listening to audio books as the screen is off. The really long battery life eink is with reading novels (not comics/manga etc as page turns are more often) with no BT, WiFi or frontlight because the ereader is almost off, only awake enough to detect a page turn. The buttons or touch controller may even wake an almost fully asleep cpu. Smaller text saves power as you turn the page less often. A full refresh page turn is expensive on power.

LCD and OLED can have the viewing angle of eink but it's only LCD with more advanced than traditional IPS and there are still garbage less than IPS LCD being sold.

The eink tends to have a micro-textured front surface (nothing to do with eink) and this is rare with OLED and LCD as shiny is cheap and looks good in a showroom. The lack of distractions (though those can be disabled in iOS and Android) on non-Android eink is good, and also dedicated non-Android eink usually have better metadata/library interfaces than is common with iOS or Android apps.
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Old 04-15-2024, 06:34 PM   #45
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The key point is color will improve if people buy the current generation tech. So thanks people. One day I may buy a color Eink device, but the monochrome side must not suffer. Also it will need to be 10" so I can browse or read comics. But I'm in no hurry. For me, color Eink is a toy.
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